e82. Land Leasing and Management with Meg Greski

[00:00:00] Cal: Welcome to the Grazing Grass Podcast Episode 82. [00:00:04] Meg: Your mental health needs to be in line. And you need to be focused. So if you're having problems with your marriage, with your kids, if you're having financial problems, if you hate your job, whatever is going on, get that taken care of. Because if you don't, your business is not going to thrive. And it's probably just gonna end up becoming another problem. [00:00:24] Cal: You're listening to the Grazing Grass Podcast, helping grass farmers learn from grass farmers, and every episode features a grass farmer and their operation. I'm your host, Cal Hartage. We have a wonderful show for you today. We have Meg Griske. She is a fellow Oklahoman. She, a few years ago, was Greg Judy's intern, and we follow her path to what she's doing now and what she will be doing in the future. I think it's a really good episode and I think you'll enjoy it. Before we get to Meg, 10 seconds about my farm. Maybe a little bit longer than 10 seconds today. Last week I told you we did blood test to do pregnancy checking on my herd. Got the results back. And it didn't go real well. A much lower pregnancy percentage than I was hoping. Much lower. When I think about the cause, my cows came out of winter kind of thin. But they didn't calve until May. And by May they had built back up enough body condition that I was good with them. I thought we were in good shape. The target, or the target in my mind is a body condition score of 6 at calving. And then, you know, I have some cows that, where I've got like a two year old heifer that's really got pulled down, so I expected her to be open. Cows aren't fleshy, but they're in good condition. There's some that are fleshy. I do know with doing May calving, that puts breeding season during hot weather in Oklahoma. Two South Pole bulls same two I used last year. Both of them... I basically got the same percentage because I had one with my red heart and one with my coriandes and then I combined them. One area that I was lacking this year that I did not do as good a job as I usually do, and it may be... The main reason right here, I didn't do a good job with my mineral, ah, I didn't do a good job with my mineral program. I've been thinking I will go to free choice minerals, and I just haven't done it yet. So, not that that's a reason, but I didn't have minerals out in front of them like I should have. I really think with the pregnancy rate I got, it's a multi, multiple factors that I'm going to try and figure out. But the real question is, where do I go now? In fact, hop on over to the Grazing Grass Community. I'll post a question there. Love to get all your feedback. I have a plan in place debated and I have it interested to see what you think I should do where with those cows that came back open So jump over to the grazing grass community and leave your comments there Let's talk to Meg Meg, we want to welcome you to the Grazing Grass Podcast. We're excited you're here today. [00:03:37] Meg: I very much appreciate the invite. I have only done one podcast before this, and I hope to do many more in the future. Actually, if I think back, this is the third one. I was on Working Cows in 2020, and then I was on The Ruminant I believe in 2014 or 2015. It was a while ago. A lot of you may know me as Meg Griskevich from the Stockman Grass Farmer. [00:04:02] Cal: very good. really predate a lot of the podcasts. That's a while ago for a podcast. Meg, can you tell us a little bit about yourself and your operation? [00:04:13] Meg: So, I grew up in the Great Lakes area. And whenever I say that, people think, and I mean Wisconsin or Minnesota, but really the east side of the Great Lakes. And I did not grow up in agriculture at all. I got involved as a high schooler. I joined 4 H and FFA. And I ended up going to college for agriculture. I went to West Virginia University, got an animal science degree, and an ag business minor. And when I was there, I heard about Greg Judy for the first time. And so I went to go work as an intern for Greg Judy. I still, looking back, I'm so grateful to him for choosing me. I don't know why in the world he would have chosen me. I'm sure I was... Like, it's a choice that made the least sense out of all of the applicants. It's a very competitive thing to get into, but he definitely put me on the path that I'm on now. So Greg was my first introduction to what we call regenerative agriculture now. I don't think that word was even around then. We really didn't know what to call it. But Greg taught me about adaptive grazing and about low input ecologically based ranch management. And so then I, I did a bunch of internships in college and after college. So besides working for Greg, I spent a little bit in Montana and then I spent a few weeks in Texas and bounced around a bunch until I could kind of figure out where I wanted to be and nothing really felt like it fit so I just kind of tucked my tail between my legs and scurried on home for a little bit and I set up Rhinestone Cattle Company when I got home. And I did a bunch of writing and a bunch of speaking during those years and I still run into people who remember me from that and that's really amazing to me. I'm hoping to spend more time in the public eye again in an educational sense because I feel like nothing that I know and nothing that I do matters unless it benefits somebody besides me. So I ran Rhinestone Cattle Company back home for seven years. And the learning curve for the first three years was very steep and exhausting to climb. But as I, as I moved forward and my business developed and changed, I came to the point where I realized that was not a location where I could, I could really reach my potential or I could reach the business's potential. What I wanted to do was a much better fit somewhere else. So I... Quit my job, gave up my rented ranch, dumped my boyfriend, sold all my stuff, and moved 1, 500 miles from anyone that I had ever met. And that was the best decision I've ever made. So I moved to Oklahoma in 2019, and it took me a bit of bouncing around down here, too, before I figured out where I fit. But I am just very happy and blessed that it is all shaking out the way it has. So I have just rented myself a small ranch down here in Western, Oklahoma, and I am working toward a custom grazing contract, which should be signed here within a few days. And I'm getting started again, picking up where I left off. [00:07:28] Cal: exciting. Well, let's, let's jump back just a little bit. That opportunity to, intern with Greg Judy, tell us a little bit about that and, and, just going through the process, cause you know, Greg Judy is well known to our listeners. [00:07:44] Meg: I really should have stayed at Greg's a lot longer than I did. I only stayed for six months where I really should have stayed for a year to get a feeling for the entire production cycle for a whole year. But Greg was an amazing person to intern for because he was right out there with us doing all of the work with us. He never used us as free labor. So Greg really wanted us to learn and really we were extra hands for him. We weren't. I guess glorified slave labor like some interns end up being and Greg I have never seen anyone work as hard as that guy does Everything that Greg has and all of his success he earned he got his start He was a conventional rancher for a while trying to hang on to the family place and he was working excessive hours in town at and at a company that manufactures Power line equipment, I believe it was So he would work tons and tons and tons of hours, like I wanna say 50, 60 hours a week in town, come home, strap a headlamp on and build fence all night, and then go back to work. I cannot wrap my mind around that. I would collapse. I'm somebody that needs my sleep, but that man knows hard work, and I got to learn hard work when I went to work for him. I, that was the best shape I've ever been in in my life. [00:09:05] Cal: So let's jump back to your interning with Greg Judy because that's a, well, for one thing, Greg Judy is well known to all of our listeners. Just how was that experience Interning with Greg Judy? [00:09:17] Meg: well I just remain grateful to this day that Greg took me on because he set me on the path that I'm on. I don't know how long it might have taken or if I ever would have gotten involved in regenerative ag without Greg. But it was great working with Greg because we weren't just glorified slave labor like some interns end up being I've had that experience on internships, too. Not great, but Greg really just we Greg went everywhere with us And helped us with everything that we had to do and he was right there teaching us the whole time. So we were helping him with things rather than just being assigned to do stuff. And how Greg got his start really is amazing. He's the hardest working guy I have ever run across. So when Greg got his start, he was a conventional rancher struggling to hold the family place together. And he was working far upwards of 40 hours a week in town. And so he would come home from his town job, strap on a headlamp, and build fence all night long. And I just can't even believe that. Like, I need more sleep than that. I would not be able to function. But everything that Greg has and all of his success is so well deserved. It was really great. cool to be there in the drought of 2012. So I got to see how Greg handled that drought versus how his conventional neighbors handled that drought. when the drought first started to hit, I got there in June and Greg had already decided to enact his drought plan and so we sold off all of the growing and finishing steers he had and we also sold off two big pot loads of breeding stock since he had consulting clients that wanted to buy those. And so we destocked it a big way, and then we made it through the entire rest of the grazing season without feeding a single bale of hay. Where the neighbors were feeding 100 round bales. And they were still somehow calling Greg crazy while they were feeding those 100 round bales, but okay. So it got to be September and we got the remnants of a hurricane that came up from the Gulf of Mexico and it rained and rained and rained and I remember just standing in Greg's shop at the house just watching it just stream down the driveway and the next day we went out to move cattle and that grass was brilliant green already that quick. [00:11:40] Cal: Oh, [00:11:40] Meg: Since we hadn't damaged it during the time that we had no moisture. So I loved working for Greg and I really should have stayed a lot longer than six months. I should have been there a whole year to see the whole production cycle. [00:11:52] Cal: And did you say you were out there 2012? [00:11:55] Meg: Yes, I was there from June to December 2012. I can't believe that's 11 years ago now. Wow. [00:12:01] Cal: hiS book, Comeback Farms, I think was 2008, 2009, somewhere in there. So I was introduced to him through his book, and I don't even know where I came across that. I guess, Stockman Grass Farmer? I'm not sure. But the first time I heard Greg speak was in 2012. I went to a small ruminants conference at Lincoln University. up there at Jeff City. So that's the first time I got to hear him in person which was amazing and that's probably, well it's not probably, at that time I had meat goats. Because of that conference we decided to try hair shape from what Greg said and from what everyone else there was saying. How did you come across Greg Judy? [00:12:48] Meg: This is kind of a cool story. Like, you look back over the course of your life, and you can probably pinpoint just one or two moments that defined and changed the course of the entire thing. Say like the day that you met your spouse or the day your child was born or something like that. So I had been up all night at this point. I was a I believe a junior in college. It was my second year of college. So sophomore, junior. I got out in three years, but that's another story. So I had been up all night checking cattle for our beef calving management class. Because none of these conventional cattle could figure out how to calve without assistance. And so we had to be there checking them every three hours just to make sure nobody had a calf stuck. I learned later on that it really doesn't have to be like that. But anyway, so it was about six o'clock in the morning and I was smoked. Last thing I wanted to do was be awake. But then I remembered there was this conference going on in town. And I had kind of wanted to go. So I'm sitting there trying to decide, hmm, do I catch a few more hours of sleep before I have class, or do I go down there to that conference and catch a little bit of that? So I decided not to be lazy, and I went down to the conference, and boy, I am glad I did. So I walked in and there was a guy named Greg Judy giving a keynote address and he was standing up there saying You don't need a tractor. You don't need grain You don't need a whole feedlot and all the infrastructure that comes with it You don't need all of this stuff that Beef Magazine says that you need and I was like, wow I have never heard anything like this before. Like, we really don't need that stuff? And this message really resonated with me because I am first generation. I don't have somebody's operation to take over that's already set up. Like, I was going to have to start from nothing. And it was going to be kind of interesting trying to convince a banker that they should lend 5 million to a 21 year old college graduate to start a feedlot and hope for the best. And so I kind of, like, I kind of really didn't have an answer to that question. How is somebody brand new right out of school supposed to start a livestock production operation from the ground up and make it work? But Greg was the first one who really could provide an answer to that question. And so I knew I had to go work for this guy. I mean, I had to figure out what, I had to know what this guy knows. so I went up to him after that conference and just begged him, I was like, Greg, I need to come work for you. And so I applied, and he chose me, and the rest is history. [00:15:23] Cal: Oh, wonderful, yeah I would have to say, for one, it took me longer than three years to get through college, so that explains more. I probably would have slept in that morning, so, excellent job to take that initiative and go listen and look how it's affected you. So you, you interned with Greg, what? And you were there six months, I believe you said? what was your biggest takeaway from your time there with Greg? [00:15:50] Meg: Well, for the first time I felt like I could actually go out there and start a grazing operation and have some clue of what needed to be done on a daily basis. I remember we were cutting brush one day and I had another one of those moments where The light bulb just kind of comes on. So I had been thinking up to that point, Okay, well, I'll get out of this internship, I'll have to go work for a few years and put away some money, and then hopefully I can start ranching. But one day we were out there cutting brush, and I just stopped and thought, wait. I don't have to wait. Like, I can get started right away on, like, a really small scale. So I still have these three pink pieces of paper where I got back to the intern camper, or the trailer, and I wrote, I wrote down a few just preliminary calculations. Like, how much land would I need if it could grow this much dry matter? How many head of livestock could that support? How much money was it going to take to buy a couple head? So that was kind of how I got started. I think I may have totally missed that question, though. What was it that you actually asked? [00:16:54] Cal: Just your biggest takeaway from your time with Greg, Judy. Of course, just what you said, just... Yeah, just, just that belief in, in you can do it, you know, I, it, it, his comeback farms I think is, is so beneficial to someone wanting to get started because it talks about how to do it with, with low capital and just having the motivation and ambition to get out there and do it. And yeah, I think that's a, a wonderful thing to come away? because you got to believe in it. [00:17:25] Meg: It's up in my part of the world, and even through college, I mean, nobody really talked about leasing and custom grazing. So, these were two totally new concepts to me. And maybe if I had grown up on a dairy farm, somebody would have talked about renting land. But I just kind of thought that you had to own land and you had to own livestock and that was a pretty big obstacle. But then what I learned from Greg, you don't have to do either one of those things. I was like, wow, this is a game changer. So I followed his model when I got started. I found some land to rent and I found a small herd to custom graze. And that's what I'm doing again now, as I'm restarting down here in Oklahoma. [00:18:02] Cal: And that brings up a question that we have that gets brought up all the time. Finding land to lease. How have you gone through that process to find land to lease? [00:18:13] Meg: Well, my cousin is a CEO of a really, really big marketing company. Like, the company that does the marketing for Pizza Hut and Taco Bell. Kind of a big deal. I remember he always told me when I was younger, It's not what you know, it's who you know. Not politically correct to say that at all, but life really does run on connections and on relationships and so The best way to find land is through somebody you know. And even if you don't know somebody, you can get to know someone. So when I started looking for land, I didn't have any luck in my immediate hometown area. It was not an agricultural area. People were not familiar with the concept. Nobody knew anything about livestock. Nobody wanted to know. I actually found out that, like, I was going around and leaving, like, pamphlets and business cards on some people's doorsteps and stuff. I actually found out that they had been, they had started calling down to the town hall wanting to know about this scam that was going around. So I'm like, okay, well, maybe we need to find a different area. So I ended up finding land about an hour south of there in an area that still was very much agricultural. a lot of Amish people living down there. There are some old dairy farms left. And the problem was, I didn't know anyone down here, so how was I going to find land? It seems like everybody rents land from their neighbor or from a family member. So all you got to do is find one guy to be like your tour guide, like your Sacagawea. So, I made friends with one guy down there, and he's like, Oh, well, uh, this guy's really old, and he's looking for somebody to take over. Um, These folks live out of town, and uh, this guy rents their land, but he's not gonna probably do it again next year. And, So you need somebody to kind of give you the inside scoop. There is also the concept of public land, not so much in the eastern U. S., but in the west. So there's BLM land, Bureau of Land Management, there's Forest Service land, and in Oklahoma, as well as I think some other states, there is school land. So, in Oklahoma, um, there's parcels that every year they have an auction, and you can bid on the lease for these parcels. And so when you bid, if you're the high bidder, you get that lease on that parcel for five years. And then at the end of that five years, it goes up for auction again, and you have to be the highest bid again if you want to keep it. Which, I mean, there is pros and cons and ups and downs of doing that kind of thing. It can rub some people really the wrong way if they have had a parcel for 20 30 years and some newbie comes in and bids it away from them. Not a great way to get started off with your neighbors, but it is an option. I thought about doing that, but then I um, took some of the auction reports for these school properties and calculated the dollars. per animal unit of forage carrying capacity that people were bidding, and some of them were just ridiculous. I'm thinking, these guys clearly do not know their numbers if they are bidding that. But, yeah, public land is an option as well. [00:21:14] Cal: public land is not something that comes to my mind readily. Or even the school land I'm sure that's more the case in western Oklahoma. I say that, I just know it's not in my portion of Oklahoma. been, I haven't looked for lease land very far from my house. [00:21:31] Meg: If anyone's wondering what school land is, they call it school land because they take the proceeds of that auction to support the school systems. [00:21:39] Cal: If someone was interested in school land, where do you find out about these auctions? [00:21:44] Meg: Well, in Oklahoma, it's run by the commissioners of the land, office, and so you can just look up on you can look up on Google, commissioners of the land office, Oklahoma, and it's a state agency, and they're the ones that administer The school land leases. I know that New Mexico has the same thing. I'm sure a bunch of other states do as well. And you can contact your Forest Service or Bureau of Land Management in your county. You can talk to your probably NRCS or Conservation District, Soil and Water people uh, University Extension people. I mean, they would all know if there is something in your state or in your area that exists public land wise and like how you would get a hold of the right people. [00:22:26] Cal: Very interesting. Not something I think about, like I mentioned before, but could definitely be a good option for some people. As we jump back to, to your ranch and getting started, you were able to find some land to lease, and you... Tell us a little bit about what you had to do to the infrastructure to get it going. [00:22:47] Meg: Well, the property that I ran for most of my time the Northeast was one that I was just driving into town to get groceries one day and I took the back road. So I'm like, Oh, well, you know, I've never been down this way before. And I drive down that road and there is 180 open acres, an abandoned dairy firm that is just sitting there. And I said, wow, that's who I'm looking for. I need to find out who those people are. There was a family still living there, but they weren't operating the farm at all. So I asked around town, I was like, who owns that place? And like, what's the deal with it? And then I found out who they were. I stopped and talked to him. I said, Hey, I'm looking for a place to rent. I mean, if you guys would be open to talking about it, let's talk about it. It helps if you can say, Oh, well, I have a couple other parcels around town or, you know, I'm. Somebody's kid or somebody's spouse, you know, but then again, that's not always a good thing. I found that out the hard way, too, is that you don't just want to drop names without finding out what that person's reputation is because there are some people you don't want to be associated with. And just equally as important, you need to ask around town and check references on people you're thinking about working with before you sign anything. That could have saved me a lot of money and a lot of grief. But in terms of infrastructure and setting my place up... Certain areas of the country have places that usually come with a lot more infrastructure than others. So when I was in the northeast, it was just basically abandoned cropland that had gone back to grass, and there was a dairy barn, but there was no fence, and there wasn't very much water infrastructure. There was one water faucet on the side of the dairy barn, and then at the other end of the property, there was the old homestead, which had a well. That old homestead is where the 90 year old landowner was born, so that was pretty cool. That place had been in their family for five generations, and it's still in their family. It's really pretty cool. But I had to build a perimeter fence around the whole place. 20, 000 foot of fence. Since it was 180 open acres, but it was a really irregular shape. Ins and outs and corners and ups and downs. It was not just a square. So I put up three strands of high tensile on solid fiberglass line posts. They were inch and a quarter posts. Three strands, the top two were hot. So I got that done, and then I used polywire around the entire rest of the interior. And then in terms of water, uh, the guy had a son who was a disabled war veteran who was living on the place, and he has a backhoe, and he would sure like to go dig holes in the backhoe for a case of beer, so. I had him go dig a bunch of test holes around the property to see where I could get water, so. and I had such a small herd, turns out these test holes were big enough to use just to water livestock out of. And there were some broken terraces that held water at certain parts of the year, so Obviously in a rented place, I'm not wanting to throw a whole bunch of permanent infrastructure at it. I had movable tanks and the fence. All the perimeter fence that I built, I put it in the lease, that this fence belongs to me. So, you can either buy it from me at the end of the lease, or I'm going to pull it up and take it with me. That was an important lesson I learned from Greg Judy as well. Because Greg had a guy that signed a lease with him, basically just to get Greg to build a fence. So, the guy signs the lease, Greg builds the fence, and then the guy kicks him off. And Greg goes, ha ha ha, I don't think so. And Greg went out there in the middle of the night and tore out all that fence. Man, that landlord was angry. But then Greg just says, look at your lease, buddy. So, I put in a lease that anything that I bring onto the place is mine. [00:26:33] Cal: I, know that Greg talks about in his comeback farms on the lease farm agreement about that wire, that fence put in there in the agreement that's yours. Just a similar situation here. I had a neighbor rent 90 acres down. Down the road from me and I helped him put in a barbed wire fence on that and he barely got it finished and barely had cattle on there. and they, ended his lease, so they, they kind of did the same thing, except he didn't have anything and they got the good fence. It's still there. [00:27:06] Meg: Yeah, I'm just very lucky that Greg told me to look out for that kind of thing, because starting out, with no background in agriculture, that's not something I would have even thought of. But then in terms of infrastructure, so I had to do a lot of infrastructure setup on this trip. Place up in the Northeast because there was, it wasn't set up for grazing. It was set up for confined dairy cattle and cropland. So dug a bunch of test holes for water. And I had some movable tanks, put up a perimeter fence to use polywire. It would have been really nice. If I had run at least one or two single interior permanent hotwires to run that polywire off of, it was such a small place I could get along with not having that, but it sure did take some time. And then it's been a lot different down here in Oklahoma because Oklahoma is cattle country. And most places that you could rent or buy down here to run cattle on will have a fence, they'll have water points, they'll have a corral. It's been so nice. And the landlady that I have now, like she actually operated the place by herself before we partnered up, and she has been willing to step up and pay for some interior hot wire divisions. And I'm just not even used to being treated this good. It's great! [00:28:19] Cal: Oh, [00:28:20] Meg: It makes a big difference. Which kind of a person that you work with. I mean, your landlord relationship and the deal that you make is going to be a lot different. Whether it's a landlord that knows anything about agriculture or has been involved or hasn't. Depends on what their goals are for their land. It's a big difference between someone who just wants to make the least money versus someone who cares about the ecological state that their land is in. And when it comes to negotiating lease contracts, another important lesson that I learned was that just because it's a lot of money to you, it could be nothing to them. Like money does not mean the same thing to two different people. So I thought I was paying, I had a past landlord that I thought I was paying a lot of money and they really should just be kissing my butt here, but they did not see it that way. mean, my lease payment that was such a big deal to me was a drop in the bucket to them. And I was more or less expendable because they didn't need me. [00:29:19] Cal: I think I have a few leases that run the gamut there. I've got one that I use and they're, they're concerned about the land But they just don't want it abused. And then I've got another one that's out of state. And I don't. His concern is the money, and I have another lease that's out of state, and I mail him the check, and it may be a month before he cashes it. He's never in a hurry to cash it which, if I got that kind of money, I'd be in a hurry to cash it. [00:29:49] Meg: For real. I'm always in a hurry to cash checks because I don't want to forget about them, and then spend the money, and have a bounce. The whole land leasing thing is just so much about relationships and I was not a very good people person for a lot of my life and I really just kind of was hoping that hey if I can write them a check I wouldn't have to be a people person but then that got proven wrong. Well I just said about the whole thing where money does not mean the same thing to different people. So this whole land renting and custom grazing thing really revolves around your relationship to your business partners. Like, please don't slack in that respect. You need to put your blood, sweat, and tears into that. Is I have a really good relationship, a really close relationship with my landlady now, and I met her through work actually, and I work as a regenerative agriculture consultant, and so I met her as one of my clients. And I noticed that she was struggling running the place by herself, and I was looking for a piece of land. And so I said, hey, maybe we could make a deal here. But we had a good relationship from the start, and that has just made all the difference. And landlords will be probably willing to go a lot farther for you if they like you as a person and if you're friends. I got my lease in Oklahoma for cheaper than she has been offered. Like, she's been offered more money for that place than what I'm paying, but she would rather have me run it because she knows me and she trusts me, and I'm dedicated to the same kind of management that she wants to see happen on the place. She said, oh yeah, I could rent this place for 20, 25 bucks an acre, but I know they would overgraze and destroy it. [00:31:29] Cal: yeah, that relationship is so important and you brought up something just while ago that relationship is important with your leasing the land portion But you've also got the opposite side where you're custom grazing. So you've got that relationship with the livestock owner. [00:31:44] Meg: Yeah, it's when the livestock owner needs to trust you and have confidence that you know what you're doing. And my custom grazing owner is actually someone that I met through Rodeo. We have yet to sign our contract, so... I guess this is all pending signatures actually hitting the paper, but He seems at this point like he's gonna be easy to work with and we're on the same page about a lot of stuff So it's kind of funny that like Greg Judy I am starting out down here with rodeo stock as Greg did a bunch of custom grazing with rodeo stock when he started and So I'm going to be, as long as things work out, taking on a whole bunch of young bucking horses for the winter. really excited to do that because I actually ride bucking horses for fun. And I own a few bucking horses and But I am kind of nervous about managing a large herd of young horses because I feel really confident with cattle. I feel like I know cattle inside and out but horses, I mean, they are different. It was my primary concern is that I'm running through hot wires, but I feel like if I give them enough space, especially during the training period, and I make sure that that wire is highly visible, maybe thicker, brighter white wire, or putting in more post along the metal wire, that they should hopefully be able to see things before they run through them. [00:33:04] Cal: And that'll be interesting to see how that goes for you because You know, it's been mentioned numerous places, but of the animals, livestock animals that, that really, I mean, they all need rotationally grazed and, and managed, horses a lot of times get stuck in a few acres next to the house and they graze that pasture down. So, I have looked for someone. using regenerative practices with horses to get them. on the podcast and I have not been very successful with finding someone thus far. So I'm excited to see how this goes for you and what you learn from it. [00:33:42] Meg: Yeah, I can report back in a few months and give you a lot more information. I'm not sure if Greg Judy ever did horses. I know he had rodeo bulls. He has a great story about the bull owner trying to relieve himself in the pasture and getting freight trained from behind by his bull. But... [00:33:59] Cal: Oh, [00:33:59] Meg: Yeah, I will have an update on the horses. I know that Nicole Masters has a module on her website that you can take and watch that's about adaptive grazing with horses. I have a colleague who is a rangeland specialist who lives up around uh, Nowata County that he firmly believes that horses should be dry lotted and fed hay. They are so destructive to grazing lands that they shouldn't even have access to it. But I think that if you manage them carefully and intentionally that they can be a, it could be a source of income and I mean, we had grazing animals with all different types of mouth parts and different grazing habits and forage preferences and digestive systems. So, I mean, multi species grazing is really, really important, I think, for long term, long term economic efficiency of a grazing property. Not to men not to mention, I mean, ecological maintenance as well. So, I am actually hoping next year to start experimenting with sheep and goats using virtual fence collars. I really want to have sheep and goats now, but the fencing thing is just kind of daunting, but there is a company called No Fence, and they're out of Norway. They are well established in Europe and overseas, and they've been doing pilot herds and test projects in the U. S., but they are actually going to roll out a sheep and goat collar commercially, they said, next year. So I will be first in line to get some of those. [00:35:33] Cal: I find those virtual fencing products very interesting, depending upon cost, you start thinking about even I've just got a little tiny goat herd of 10 does making it cost effective because by the time you buy the collars and other things, that's not enough animals to really make a difference, but you start getting into some large number animals, the price, it's, it gets up there pretty quick, so I'm, I'm interested to see how that technology continues to mature, and as most technologies, as it matures, it gets cheaper. [00:36:09] Meg: I have been following the virtual offense thing with great interest. Oklahoma State University New Mexico State, Colorado State, I believe. Like there are tons of universities in the western U. S. right now that. are doing research projects on virtual offense. And so right now there are two companies that I know a lot about. The first one being no fence that I talked about. They are, they have optimized themselves for smaller herds and smaller acreages. And so they do, they don't have any type of base station or large infrastructure investment you have to make up front. They charge. They charge about 200 300 for each collar, but you own those collars. They have solar charging capability on the collars, so those batteries recharge themselves. You can also recharge the batteries and reuse them, instead of buying new batteries every time they go dead. Collars for sheep and goats, as well as cattle. And they are not currently commercially available in the U. S. They are hoping for the sheep and goat collars to be rolled out sometime next year, but You can have as few or as many collars as you want, as most of their test herds and the herds that's being used in now are small and in the eastern U. S. They have some projects out west, but they are really trying to hit the small operator market. And then um, there is a company called Vence, They are commercial in the U. S. right now, so you can go out and buy their system. But they are very well suited for large operations. Because you rent the collars from them for 35 per collar per year, so that's really cheap. But, that you have to buy a relay station. And that is between 7, 000 and 12, 000. So, you need to have a somewhat sizable operation to swallow that overhead cost. Um, It works very well in places where you don't have good cell phone service, whereas no fence, you really do need to have cell phone signal, at least semi reliably for that. the fence system is very well suited for large rangeland acreages in the western U. S. So it's been used on some forest service and BLM land, and on places where you have 100, 000 acre pastures and just the increase in forage utilization and stocking rate from having some type of managed grazing in place will more than pay for that. And there are more companies also that are either operating overseas right now or are fixing to launch in the U. S., and so there's going to be more and more options coming to the market. I personally am really interested in virtual fence because I travel a lot. My job takes me all over the state of Oklahoma and I rodeo all over the western U. S. And so, if I can move my cattle from my phone or from my laptop, well, I'm in North Dakota or... New Mexico or wherever I want to be that's a game changer for me [00:39:12] Cal: can see how it can be hugely beneficial, and while I'm not traveling extensively like you are, I've got an off the farm job that likes to keep me busy, and there's some days It's tough to get out there to move stuff. Move animals, of course, you know, I try and plan ahead, so it's not a problem, because I'm not Greg Judy. I, I gotta get my rest. Those virtual fencing tools hold tremendous promise for so many people. [00:39:44] Meg: is it my consulting work? We just hear so often. Oh, I can't do that adaptive high density grazing stuff. That's so much work Which really it's not but if we could take that excuse away from people think hey, you can do this from your armchair You don't even have to miss the OSU game for this back when I was in New York, I was working full time and I was running my ranch by myself So my average day was that I would get up and drive about an hour and a half to work and I was an artificial inseminator on dairy farms So I would go hit a whole bunch of farms heat detect and breed a bunch of dairy cows and then I would drive about Anywhere from an hour to two hours to my rented property because I was trying to stay away from the dairy farms Then I would go and hopefully get my cattle moved before dark. I mean, some days I was really pushing it and it was stressful sometimes, but I would get my cattle moved and then I would go home and get home probably about nine, ten o'clock at night. Hopefully sleep a little bit before I got to get up at six or seven the next morning. So do not try and tell me that this adaptive grazing thing is too much work. If I could do it driving by 500 miles a day with a full time job by myself, I do not want to, hear your excuse. [00:41:02] Cal: Yeah, but like you said, so many people say, well, I just can't do that each day. It and like you point out, it doesn't take all that much time each day to get it done. Yeah. [00:41:15] Meg: No, and what I usually tell people is that you should start by rotating your cattle however often you check them. So say that you check them every three days. Just every time you go out there, give them a new brick of grass. That way you're not out there any more frequently than you would be otherwise. [00:41:30] Cal: good [00:41:30] Meg: And then once you kind of get the hang of it and it becomes really quick and easy, then you can step it up. And the other thing I hear a lot of is people saying, Oh, I would never have the time to do that. It's because they have five, six, seven different herds of cattle scattered all over three counties and their parcels are all really broken up. And I had that for a while. I mean, I'm not to that degree, but I had properties that were not contiguous that were on the opposite of opposite side of town from each other and didn't take me very long to put those herds together. And just hire a trucker, take them a few miles back and forth every couple months. It was not worth it to me to have to have two mineral feeders, two four wheelers, or have to truck my equipment back and forth every day just to check on everybody. Having two different sets of polywire and posts, and that just would have not worked out, so. Combine your herds, folks. Even if you gotta truck them between properties. And that kind of leads me to another point, is that maybe you don't need all of these different scattered properties everywhere. If you were maximizing the forage yield of some of your properties, maybe you wouldn't need the far flung ones. Because everybody is just so caught up in this paradigm of you have to get bigger and bigger and bigger, And you think that in order to get bigger you have to get more land. Not necessarily. I actually backed out of signing a third lease back up north when I realized, you know, I don't need more land right now. What I need to do is get the land that I have in top condition to where it's growing as much forage and it's holding as many head of livestock as is possible. Because my overheads won't go up. It won't, it'll be less driving around with a four wheeler and less making lease payments if I can just take a little bit of money and grow more forage on the place that I have. Because that place that I had up north really needed some lime and kind of needed some weed control. Like I really should have attacked those things. I left money on the table. Because I figured that I didn't want to buy any inputs or put any soil amendment money in. I wanted to wait on the livestock to do it and renovate that property through the mob grazing. Which, it definitely improved, it definitely was happening, but I left a lot of money on the table waiting for that to happen. Sometimes you should just spend the money up front just to get to your maximum carrying capacity sooner and make more money for those subsequent years, instead of spending those years waiting for your land to improve. Sometimes it's worth the money. [00:44:01] Cal: you know, I think you bring up a couple of interesting points there, excellent points. You know, combining your herd, I've done that at times, and then I'll split them up because I've got some lease properties that are not next to each other. I've walked them between properties trying to follow Greg Judy's cattle drive. I ended up Just the other day combining them back into one herd again because that's what I really want to do It makes management on my part easier. I go one place. I Put up my poly wire. I'm done. I'm not having to travel 15 20 30 minutes over to another property and do it So I'm trying to figure out that getting them. I would like to walk them between properties and, it's not that often. I think it's just me getting out of the way, we've always done stuff, you know. And I think a lot of people struggle with that. [00:44:58] Meg: Oh, and I do too. I mean, us in the regenerative space, we talk so much about avoiding paradigm paralysis and not doing it the same way everyone's always done it, but it is so easy to just fall into the way that you've done it for the last five years. Because I started thinking recently about going to virtual fence, and then I caught myself thinking, oh, you know, we should just stick with that polywire. It's safer, you know, we already know how to do it. And then I caught myself, I said, hey, do not fall into the polywire as a paradigm. Do not get stuck on, like, just because no one else is doing it doesn't mean that it's your stopping point. Cause you really get, it's really tough when you are a one person show to just like, be mentally honest with yourself and to police yourself. and it's great if you have a spouse or if you have a business partner or an advisor or a consultant or somebody to go to, to kind of keep an eye on you, keep you in line. I really had to keep myself in line a few times and it was a really difficult decision when I decided to shut down up in the Northeast. I mean, it was, it was a pride thing. I mean, people are going to think I went under, you know, but it, what, what happened was that my business had evolved to a point where it made sense to change the location and It was gonna take a few years to do that, and I needed to, I needed to make the hard decisions and keep emotion out of it. People tend to make decisions on emotion and then rationalize with facts. People don't make decisions just based on cold hard facts. And so you kinda gotta be like, vigilant with yourself about that, [00:46:30] Cal: Very true on that. We, we see that all the time with emotional decisions and, and really when you guys stop and, and look at the facts and figures to come up with stuff, you know, even when I work with my dad with him on his cattle and there's things he's kicking around the idea. Change in his calving season, but it's, he's, he's likes it where it is. now. He's just thinking maybe he could make, it could be more efficient and he wouldn't have to feed so much and, and feed so much hay and then he could, Maybe make a bigger profit doing it the other way, but he's always done it this way, so he's kicking it around, he, it's, it's a tough decision for him, because facts and figures said one thing, but his emotions are saying, ah, but I like this, this is what I want to do, [00:47:23] Meg: Sometimes you don't realize how much you like the new way until you try the new way. So I've never heard of anybody who switched from winter calving to, like, actual spring, late spring, early summer calving, and then went back. Never heard of anyone doing it. Well, I didn't grow up in agriculture, so I kind of skipped a lot of the emotional and mental things that go along with multi generational agriculture and operations. Things like, Worrying about what your neighbors think of you having a reputation to uphold or like not wanting to be the one that loses the family operation. Like I kind of skipped all that, but now that I'm kind of getting back in, I'm starting to experience some of these emotional things that are very big deals to a lot of producers. Like, I'm starting to, like, after my first three years, when things finally started to get a little bit easier, I was finally starting to figure things out, get my head above water, and not be panicking and stressing every day. The last thing I wanted to do was make another change, and risk going back to that place, where I was not confident, and where I was worried, and learning the hard way. So, I mean, it can be, it's very easy to... Not want to make life harder on yourself than it has to be. It's like going with what you know is the safe option and safety is nice. And when it comes to your neighbors thinking you're crazy, I mean, I've started to experience that too, finally coming down here. up in the north, I really didn't have very many neighbors around me that weren't Amish. The agriculture wasn't really doing so well. So that's why I was able to find land that was just sitting around doing nothing. There weren't that many other producers out there. But, now down here in Oklahoma, there are tons of ranchers around. And you share your fence line with other cattle all the time. And all of your neighbors have an opinion. I just heard through the grapevine already that my, my landlady has a reputation for being a little bit different because of some of her regenerative viewpoints that the conventional neighbors don't share. And... There was a person that I was talking with and they were like, Oh, you're renting from that person? That person is a little bit crazy. And then I was like, Oh, why do you say that? And then this lady starts talking about, well, she cares about this regenerative stuff and this soil health and this grazing. I was like, I'm crazy too. And this lady just goes, Oh. I was like, Oh no, me and her are the same kind of crazy. So yeah, if you're one of my neighbors that think I'm crazy and you're just waiting to see what happens, stay tuned. Season two is about to come out. I'm getting virtual fence collars next year. [00:49:55] Cal: That'll be exciting. And you know, as you, you say that about your, your neighbors and the way they look here, I don't know what they say about me. I'm, I'm not too concerned about it. I'm sure they, they, they think I'm crazy. Except what I don't understand is how do they look across the fence and see I have so much more grass than they do year. round. [00:50:18] Meg: Everybody has been eyeing our grass with interest this summer. The place that I am renting, it was grazed last winter and it has just been sitting stockpiling all summer, so there is just a tremendous quantity of grass on there. And the neighbors have been eyeing it all summer and asking her to rent it, and they're like, well, you would have grass like this too if, um, You didn't set stock all the time. Like when it comes to people thinking I'm crazy and wanting to talk, like. If you're not willing to get out your schedule F and your farm profit and loss records and compare that with me I don't want to have a conversation about who's right and who's wrong Don't take criticism from anybody that wouldn't compare their records with you [00:51:01] Cal: Sound advice. Yes, Meg, this has been a great conversation, but it's time we change gears just a little bit and move on to our overgrazing section, in discussion, talk more about the ranch business management. [00:51:15] Meg: Yes, I love business management. It's really just still kind of shocking to me how many people run large agricultural operations, lots of acreage, lots of machinery, assets, livestock, and don't even approach it as a business, don't approach it as a business at all. Which, I know that the whole concept can be scary and overwhelming and tedious and complicated because I've been going through that setting up my new business. It's a pain in the butt! But you know what? I mean, if I am staking my living and my financial security for the rest of my life on this, I think it's worth some attention. So when I first started out, I figured, okay, well, I'm, I rented seven acres. I put like three, four cattle on it. I'm like, I'm just going to wing it, you know, cause I don't really have any experience. I'm just going to do the best that I can to do what Greg did and kind of learn as I go. That was the worst idea I have ever had. Don't wing it, please. Believe your numbers. If it doesn't work on paper, it's not just gonna magically work out somehow in real life later in the year. Even if it does work on paper, there is a chance that something's gonna go wrong and it won't work in real life, so. Please don't shoot yourself in the foot from the beginning. I love doing the numbers, and the spreadsheets, and the researching, and the studying, and the geek stuff, because to me... Numbers mean answers, and answers mean hope. And even if you're not the kind of person that wants to do that, to do the numbers and the business stuff, get a consultant or hire an accountant or get somebody else to do it for you, but it needs to be done. [00:52:47] Cal: Where would you suggest for someone just getting started or even someone's sitting here listening and they're saying, you know, Oh, yeah. I've really got to do a better job of that. I've been winging it. would you suggest they start? [00:52:59] Meg: Ranching for Profit changed my life. The Ranching for Profit school. It's an expensive program to go to if you are not a large full time operator. Uh, thEy are starting to do some smaller, cheaper, shorter workshops and programs now. so uh, Ranch Management Consultants is the group that puts on the Ranching for Profit schools. If you can afford to go to the Ranching for Profit school, You need to go, believe me, you just do. I went in 2015, and I am going again in February, so I am retaking it. Just because they've added a lot of material and changed a lot of things in the past 8 years. But definitely get on their um, Email newsletter list for the announcements of when they're having their programs. Even also if you're not, if you don't consider yourself a rancher. Anybody in agriculture, if you're a crop farmer, if you're a dairy farmer, no matter what you do, if it's agriculture related, ranching for profit will be relevant, I promise. [00:54:00] Cal: With Ranching for Profit, I think Dave Pratt has written a couple of books. Are you familiar with those books he's, he's wrote? [00:54:09] Meg: I have one sitting right there on my nightstand right now, and I remember what, and I do not remember what it's called. Something turnaround. [00:54:18] Cal: Yes, The turnaround. Story or... [00:54:20] Meg: But yeah, Dave Pratt's books would also be a good place to start. [00:54:24] Cal: Well, that, that's why I was going to, that's where I was leading with that. Do you think those provide you a basis to get started till you can get to that ranching for profit? [00:54:34] Meg: Yeah, I definitely think so, and there's a lot of people in the regenerative community now that are taking that information and passing it along. And also a um, handbook that Sarah came out with from a Sarah grant. It's called building a sustainable business. I mean, that's something you can get for free from the NRCS most likely, or you can download that online, and that walks you through step by step putting together a business plan. And that is best suited for existing businesses that need to make a turnaround, and also businesses that are wanting to direct market products or sell a physical product. Since I was, I, I considered myself starting from scratch again in Oklahoma, I had to like rearrange it and kind of change it around to be what I liked, but that's a good resource too. [00:55:24] Cal: Very good. I'm not familiar with that, so I'm going to have to look that up. And if we can find a link, we'll add It in our show notes. [00:55:31] Meg: It is, a Sarah handbook called um, Building a Sustainable Business. [00:55:35] Cal: Okay. I've made notes. I'll have to that up and see. You mentioned spreadsheets. Are there, are there any templates you use, or have you just developed your own? [00:55:48] Meg: I really like to create my own. Like, I took the ranching for profit method of enterprise analysis for businesses and kind of laid out my own system of keeping records along those lines. And I have done extensive spreadsheets on land costs that I have researched in the area. And things like rainfall extreme weather events land costs, and stocking rate per animal unit. Like, I examined, like, ten counties in western Oklahoma before choosing where I wanted to be, so. Kind of a data geek. I also have a gigantic OneNote database. This thing is my life's work. It is my pride and joy. I wish OneNote had a word count feature, but they don't. So every time I read or hear or learn something that I think is important that I need to remember, I put it in this OneNote database. And it is categorized by topic, subtopic, and everything I put in there has a cited source. So I know exactly who said it and where I heard it. So I can search this thing and find information about anything I need to know about. So if somebody wants to know what are the nutritional benefits of, of animal products raised on healthy soil versus conventional, I can just type that in, phytonutrients in grass fed and grass finished beef, and that whole thing pops right up. If I want to talk, if I need information about a certain forage crop species, if I want to know facts about soil types, grazing management, animal health, genetics, food issues, psychology, education, There's all kinds of stuff in here. I have a whole list of resources, like website links, useful facts. really have a social life, no. [00:57:34] Cal: You know, I, I am so impressed by your OneNote system. I use Obsidian to do something similar, but it's much younger, it's a newer system, and I'm just, I'm implementing the practice of doing this because I could see after years of doing that, the amount of information you have in there and your ability to pull stuff out and put stuff together is amazing. I think the, the German word zettelkäschen, let's see, zettelkäschen, I think something like that is that practice which is, it's fascinating to me. So, I think it's wonderful you brought that up because very few people talk about that to me. [00:58:14] Meg: I started out just taking, like, clippings out of magazine articles and stuff. Like, I would circle something, cut the article out, and put it in a hanging file folder, but then I could never remember, oh, where did I put that article, or who said that, you know? And then these folders got to be pretty big the more I read, so I'm like, we need to streamline this a little bit. [00:58:32] Cal: Well, very good. That... I think that's wonderful. Like I said, I'm using Obsidian to do something similar, much younger process or newer process that I'm in there. If I'd started this when I was your age, I'd be amazed by what I had. I'm, I'm impressed with what I have now, but I'm, I'm just getting started good. [00:58:54] Meg: As we go to all these workshops, we subscribe to these magazines, and we spend this money and our time learning, and then it usually goes in one ear and out the other. Like, this stuff isn't worth anything unless we can hang on to it and use it. [00:59:05] Cal: Right. Yeah. There's a whole nother tangent we could go on about memory, memory techniques that I'm fascinated about. But, we need to move to our famous four questions, same four questions we ask of all of our guests. Uh, Yes, I stole that from the BiggerPockets podcast. Please don't tell them. Our very first question. What is your favorite grazing grass related book or resource? [00:59:30] Meg: Well, I have been following Doug Ferguson really closely lately. He writes the Doug's Market Intel blog on Beef Magazine's website, and I think Progressive Farmer also carries it, known as Mr. Cattlemaster. So his website is mrcattlemaster. com. So Doug is a guru of sell buy marketing, and it is a completely different way of looking at the livestock markets. determining what, what you should buy and what you should sell. When and where, and for what price, and how to guarantee yourself a profit when you buy livestock instead of waiting for when you sell them. And it's adaptive to the changes in the market and the world. And I really think that I could not have a prayer of succeeding in this industry without understanding and using sell by analysis and marketing. So, I follow Doug Ferguson's work really closely. [01:00:25] Cal: I, I have started reading some of his stuff and so, so I think that's very interesting, excellent resource there and we will be sure to link that in our show notes. [01:00:36] Meg: Doug teaches marketing schools every so often, a couple times a year, where he teaches people how to use sell by management. And, I've gone to like three schools. At this point from different people about sell by marketing and learn from like three different people But Doug's school was the first one that I've walked away from thinking. I understand this and I can do it [01:00:57] Cal: Oh [01:00:57] Meg: than thinking. Oh my gosh. I've got to be a rocket scientist to understand this like there's no way like I don't I just don't get it, but Doug presents it in a way that you can understand it and use it [01:01:07] Cal: good, excellent to know. second question, what is your favorite tool to use on the farm? [01:01:15] Meg: would probably have to be a tie right now between my four wheeler and my temporary fencing. I definitely would not be willing to ranch without some type of grazing management control over my livestock. So whether that's virtual fence, instinctive migratory grazing, herding, virtual fence, or um, polywire, physical fence, like you need to have some way to control the impact of your livestock on your land and your forage harvest. It's like without having any ability to do that. Like if I, like if I just had to turn my cattle out continuous graze all year long, I would, I don't see how I can't, I can't even, the second would be my four wheeler because I need a way to get around the place quickly and efficiently and carry stuff, move mineral feeders, set up temporary fence. My polywire on foot. And she's in probably her late 50s or early 60s. I'm like, wow, I do not want to work that hard. I'm sorry. I don't So I bought this 500 four wheeler that is actually a year older than I am. I'm 32 So this four wheeler is 33 years old It's not much to look at, but it's got, it's got one cylinder, it follows a plug every now and then, but it gets the job done. One thing I am definitely taking note of my second time around getting into the ranching business is that I thought I was bare bones before, I'm really depreciation. If it rusts, rots, or depreciates, I don't want nothing to do with it. Makes it really kind of difficult to get a loan because they want you to have stuff to secure the loan, but then my goal really needs to be to work toward operating without loans anyway. So let's not manage our place with the intent of impressing the loan officers. Let's manage with of not needing them. [01:03:09] Cal: Excellent advice there. And continuing on the advice, um, trail with our third question. What would you tell someone just getting started? [01:03:19] Meg: Well, I've pretty much covered a lot of the big lessons that I've learned, but here's one I have not brought up yet, but it's gotta be at the top of the list. Your mental health needs to be in line. And you need to be focused. Not just on, like, an hour to hour basis, but... One of the biggest handicaps I had in my first attempt at the livestock business before I moved to Oklahoma was that I was suffering from severe depression that, looking back, I've had symptoms of that since 7th grade. Had it all through college, all through after college, and it really was crippling my ability to run the business to the best of my ability. I just, I didn't realize that I was actually sick. I thought, oh, you know, I'm just kind of going through a rough time, you know, things are gonna be hard, you know, just getting started in agriculture, it's not gonna be easy, you know, or like, once this happens, or once that happens, then I'll be happy, then I'll be fine. But then a bunch of that stuff happened. And I'm like, why am I not happy? And that's when I realized that I actually had a physical illness. Like, there are um, chemical problems in my brain that you can't just, like, tough it out. You can't just get through it. I mean, depression is a physical disease. So I finally got on antidepressants, and it has made a world of difference, and I am proud to say I will be on them for the rest of my life. I don't care. I have no desire to ever get off them. It's night and day different now. And also, during the time that I was trying to run my first business, And all through college, all through my internships, I was just not focused on that. I was focused on a lot of other things and I was not giving my career my full attention on like a long term basis. And it was, I was just kind of going through the motions while I was thinking about and striving towards other things. So make sure that you have got your mental health taken care of and make sure that you are able to focus. Because I am focused now. I mean, I kind of have the rest of my life in a personal sense, it's kind of lined out, and I am eating, sleeping, and breathing this grazing business this time. So if you're having problems with your marriage, with your kids, if you're having financial problems, if you hate your job, whatever is going on, get that taken care of. Because if you don't, then your business is not going to thrive. And it's probably just gonna end up becoming another problem. [01:05:43] Cal: Excellent advice on both of those. Mental health is so important, but gets overlooked so often, and then just being focused on your goals, and where you're going, and being clear about where you want to go. can others find out more about you? [01:05:59] Meg: Well, I have a YouTube channel. I haven't posted much on there lately, but it does have some of my conference presentations from when I was up north. So that is Regenerative Ranching with Meg on YouTube. And you could also hit my email m g c o w s at gmail. com. So m g cows at gmail. com. If you live in the state of Oklahoma, I work for a state agency that does regenerative ag consulting. I can't tell you which agency because otherwise their PR people would have to review all this stuff. But if you live in the state of Oklahoma and you're looking for personalized advice and support on transitioning to and using regenerative ag practices, and whether you're a grazer or a crop farmer, or even an urban food producer, or just someone who wants to practice conservation in your backyard, reach out to me and I have colleagues all over the state that can help you wherever you are. And our services are free since we're part of the government. [01:07:02] Cal: Very good. Wonderful. Meg, thank you for coming on and sharing with us today. Really have enjoyed it. [01:07:09] Meg: Well, thank you for having me. I mean, I really hope that this was valuable to your listeners, and I intend to continue sharing my experiences, especially with the horse grazing, as we go forward. [01:07:20] Cal: You're listening to the Grazing Grass Podcast, helping grass farmers learn from grass farmers, and every episode features a grass farmer and their operation. If you've enjoyed today's episode and want to keep the conversation going, visit our community at community. grazinggrass. com. Don't forget to follow and subscribe to the Grazing Grass Podcast on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and YouTube for past and future episodes. We also welcome guests to share about their own grass farming journey. So if you're interested, fill out the form on grazing grass.com under the Be Our Guest link. Until next time, keep on Grazing Grass.