e80. Greening the Desert with Alejandro Carrillo

00:00 - Cal Hardage (Host) Welcome to the grazing grass podcast, episode 80. 00:04 - Alejandro Carrillo (Guest) If you created the conditions, even if the seed. Mine doesn't have the seeds, nature finds a way to put those seeds there, actually through wildlife, through birds, through livestock, through deer, through the wind, through the water. But the important thing is to create the conditions for those seeds to germinate. 00:22 - Cal Hardage (Host) You are listening to the grazing grass podcast, helping grass farmers learn from grass farmers, and every episode features a grass farmer and their operation. I'm your host, cal Hardeech. On today's episode we have Alejandro Calrillo, who ranches in the Chihuahuan Desert, and I hope I got all those pronounced right. I tried. Alejandro did a wonderful job on the episode today. I think you'll really enjoy it. He talks about what he's doing in a desert environment to graze cattle, holistic management, etc. It's a really good episode. I think you're going to enjoy it. 01:04 Ten seconds about my farm. Not much is happening here. Things are just progressing A little cooler but we're supposed to have some really nice weather. This weekend I did purchase a Spanish buck and I was able to find one not too far from me. That fits in really nice from Koi Family Line or Koi Line of Spanish goats. I think it's going to work good on my dose. Otherwise, things are going good. Lambs are growing out good, cattle are still grazing on some new property I have. So that's all going good. Enough about me, let's talk with Alejandro. Alejandro, we want to welcome you to the grazing grass podcast. We're excited you're here today. It's my honor to be here. Thanks for the invitation. Thank you, alejandro. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself and your operation? 01:59 - Alejandro Carrillo (Guest) Yeah, we actually are having cattle ranch operation in the Chihuahuan Desert, which, if you see the Chihuahuan Desert, it's a desert that actually goes three states in the US and four states in Mexico, northern Mexico. We have a 30,000 acre ranch. It's mostly cattle, but we also run some sheep. Actually we also run horses and donkeys as well and a few goats, but the main operation is cattle and sheep. And well, you know, actually my background is in IT, in information technology, computer science, because when I was young and I asked my dad, what should I study, he said study anything you want, but nothing related to ranching. I spent 15 years in the IT industry in a little bit in Mexico, but mostly in the US, and with my dad through 70, he called me to help him at the ranch. So I've been at the ranch for right now, for 18 years. 03:02 - Cal Hardage (Host) When you came back to your ranch 18 years ago, was your dad using Regency practices, or how was the ranch managed at that point? 03:12 - Alejandro Carrillo (Guest) Yeah, my dad was using pretty conventional practices. He didn't know any better, you know. And I think the thing is that sometimes we don't really see that we're going downstream, that we are actually degrading the place, because it happens slow. But even before I joined the ranch I really wanted to manage the ranch in a different way. I really started kind of reading documentation about rotational grazing and other systems. But to my fortune really, in the state of Chihuahua, where we are in Chihuahua, Mexico, we have a very good holistic management practitioners. So not only they gave us my first course on holistic management, but also they become mentors and friends to me, which really make a big difference. And then together, like five or six people, we travel to many places around the world, probably including the US and South America, but also Africa, to learn from the best, to learn from the best, and that really been helping us to keep improving what we do. 04:19 - Cal Hardage (Host) Sounds like a tremendous opportunity to go over and see in other parts of the world how people are doing it. 04:26 - Alejandro Carrillo (Guest) Oh no, definitely, Definitely. I mean, what you do is actually try to grab the principles and they apply the principles to your place In what they call that customized, personalized, even tropicalized, even though we're not tropical at all. One of the challenges we have at the ranch is the low precipitation, because you need to keep aware that our ranch only gets like eight inches and inches of rain per year. This particular year that we are now is quite a challenge here, because we only have that two inches so far. Oh, wow, yeah, and we're almost at the end of the rainy season, but where I am we still can grow some grass during October, but that's been much it. 05:11 - Cal Hardage (Host) You've only gotten two inches this year. The past year has been dry as well. 05:15 - Alejandro Carrillo (Guest) No, the last year was a good year. 05:18 We get about above average. 05:20 We get about 11, 12 inches. So the good thing is that the last year was a good year and we were able to grow grass that we haven't even finished yet. We are probably still three months of stockpile from last year, which is helping us to actually start stockpiling from next year. At this point in time, what we do is we take a look at how much grass we have grown and then we compare that to the stocks, how many cattle we have, and then we make the adjustment whether we call more cattle or this dog or whether we keep what we have or maybe, like last year, we kept our winners or winners to get into more steers. So this is an important time of the year for us to make the adjustments. So the idea for us is to actually being able to carry the whole stock, the whole herd, to next year until the end of the month soon of next year, which will be again in November, we know it. Yeah, for us it's very important to actually keep the operation. That is very low cost. 06:36 - Cal Hardage (Host) Now one thing we talked a little bit more about current situation, what we need to do there. You mentioned, when you came back to the ranch you'd done some reading and then you joined a holistic or you was able to work with some other holistic management and get some visits to some other farms. What did you come home and do first? 07:00 - Alejandro Carrillo (Guest) What we all should do is first to educate ourselves, because we speak a different language. Reality is that if we try to help someone who hasn't been really educated or taken a formal training on holistic or any routine practices, there will be no understanding. I mean, first we need to understand what is all about it and then we start seeing things different, seeing things different, and then we can actually have that common ground, that common ground to have a good conversation about what can be done. So for me it was very fortunate because there was a course on holistic management, like a five Saturdays that actually laid the foundation for me to understand what my mentors were trying to tell me. 07:48 Would you suggest someone looking into this, getting started finding where a course located they can go to, or there's some online courses that work out well, I think I will say the combination, because online courses are really good, podcasts are really good I mean, there's a bunch of information in YouTube, university and so on, you know but also the interaction that gives you like a personal, phase to phase training, in person training. That really is invaluable. You need to have a community of rich in farmers, ranchers, that will support each other, and that way we're going to make much more advanced, much more progress. 08:33 - Cal Hardage (Host) Yeah, having that network so valuable. Now, once you went through the course, what did you all do on the ranch to do it differently? 08:43 - Alejandro Carrillo (Guest) Back at the ranch. Well, you know I have a lot of questions and a lot of excitement, you know, to try different things. And then what is today? My friend Jesus and El Coblanto was a certified instructor. They went to my ranch, they take a look at the ranch and they suggested ways to develop the water, develop the fence, and also there's another very important factor, which is the genetics, Because you know, the genetics that you have on conventional management are very selective, like our genetics that actually are like you have a small group here and another small group there and almost group there, and now you're trying to get all those groups of cattle together into a bit more competitive environment. You know a lot more competition. Obviously you're going to be moving those cattle as often as needed to keep the herd in a good state, but you have to really have the cattle or you have to start selecting and calling for what you want. So the cattle should really be able to help you reach and raise the land. 09:53 - Cal Hardage (Host) What kind of cattle did your dad have at your ranch? We? 09:57 - Alejandro Carrillo (Guest) used to have her for cattle and a lot of people started moving to more continental like a Charalee, and then, when things were not working because we were degrading the land, then we started putting Brahma because we thought it was a problem of the breed, you know. But the breeds were okay. I mean, I have believed nothing particular to any breed, it's more what you do with the breed, because nowadays we have more difference within a breed than across breed. In our dry, high elevation environment English breeds work well. It's just that the degradation that has taken place that we're giving a very hard time because, you know, very dry, dusty, very hot. But I think we can bring back mostly the English breeds that we used to have. 10:44 - Cal Hardage (Host) Is that the direction you continued was mainly with English breeds? 10:48 - Alejandro Carrillo (Guest) Yeah, because you know, I feel that you need to have something that you enjoy having and because I was raised with her for Senaila. I like the red cattle, so we've been putting into what my dad used to have like a Charalee with a little bit of Brahma. We've been putting red angles and her for, so we got a bit of a mix right now, but we're getting. 11:10 - Cal Hardage (Host) We're heading to the right direction Very good and I know when you say, well, you were raised with her furs. I hear it all the time. Laster said it in in his philosophy that the the color doesn't matter when they're hanging on their rail. But you you go sell animals in our market and black animals are preferred and people are going that direction and stuff. You know color doesn't matter. But I get just me personally I get tons of aesthetic value from my Red cows or I do like a little spotted in there because I grew up on a dairy and I just can't get away from a A little bit of color out there. I enjoy and and it's hard to you don't want that affecting your bottom line. You want to be profitable without that. But that's, that's a consideration for me. I stay away from black cows because I just don't enjoy them as much. 12:04 - Alejandro Carrillo (Guest) Well, I think we're on the same page. Nothing, I guess, black black cattle. I mean, there's great black cattle, great. 12:10 - Cal Hardage (Host) Oh yeah right. 12:11 - Alejandro Carrillo (Guest) But you know, I think you really need to be pleased about what you're seeing in your, your property. And yeah, I mean I agree with you. I mean the color has nothing to do with the quality or the note to intensity of the beef or the meat Are you eating. But you know, you just want to be pleased with what you're seeing. 12:29 - Cal Hardage (Host) Yes, yeah, now you. You had the course. They came out there. What was the the biggest challenge as you move forward on your journey from conventional to more regenerative? 12:42 - Alejandro Carrillo (Guest) There's. There was so much a bird ground when I joined the ranch. I mean, let me tell you, we actually have that run for 45 years, 45 years, and we bought a good ranch with the great. Is the ranch pretty bad? 12:57 I mean we we better run that used to have gas now and then nothing that just bear ground and a bunch of mesquite and Woody, encouragement of woody plants. Why the encouragement of woody plants? Because Nature always trying to cover this all with something. So if we get rid of the grass in that she's gonna start sending something to cover, like all kind of woody plants and also Notches week. So we were actually. 13:22 It's not that the people don't work hard. I think we most runches and and farmers work hard, but eventually I think we're working on the wrong stuff. So that's why we encourage people to work for what you want and not for what you want, because we spend a lot of time just fighting nature and we say, oh no, that mesquite or that juniper or that particular woody plant is actually Displacing my grass. But the other thing, that's the way it works. I think nature always sends something Customized to you, to your management. So we say, no, I don't like that. Well, we need to change the management. 14:01 But I think one of the biggest trouble that usually we have is how we actually embed ourselves into nature instead of trying to dominate nature instead of. And then also the other struggle is Patient, because if you have bird ground and then you're expecting, with animal impact, to go from bird ground to a perennial base grasses, which is what we're striving for Then that doesn't happen. You need to respect the natural succession, going from bird ground to weeds and then to annuals and then to perennials, and Then you start actually building this wall and you actually start fixing the water cycle Through proper aggregation or air in this wall. So, yeah, that's gonna struggle most people have. The other thing is that I did have a bad at some point is to think that all, if this plan is not eaten by my livestock, it's not good. Well, nature, sensually, a lot of plants are not intended to be eaten, you know. They're intended to actually grow this oil, open the soil, feeding the microbiology. But not necessarily we have to eat all the plants are in our property. 15:17 - Cal Hardage (Host) I think that's a a very good point that people forget about is that succession of Plants as you're establishing pasture or whatever, and that some of the plants I've got a a Pasture place at the Sarisa Lespidisa has gone crazy this year and that that's just management on my part. I did two things that really contributed to the Sarisa going crazy this year. One I grazed it too much earlier in the year and then I let the Sarisa get too mature. So all things that I can learn from and do better in the future. But that that Sarisa was just. It took over because it was protecting the ground from the abuse I was causing there for a little bit. 16:02 - Alejandro Carrillo (Guest) Yeah, and we we have places where it just the response for more Intentional animal grazing and when I say intentional is you have a large pasture or Paddock and then you split it in two, then you now you have two large paddocks, which is still very marginal animal impact. 16:24 So what we're trying to recommend the ranchers, farmers, it's better for you to go and take a look at the best areas and then try to actually Take a piece of that a good area and then do more in more animal impact, more strong animal, in such a way that you, let's say that you decided to move every day for at least seven days to do your test Then, that those daily moves are going to have enough animal impact to make a difference, to actually grow more weeds. And they I mean there are some places that we just grow a lot of weeds Is it's probably whole natural succession and we we tell people you're on the right direction. It's bad when you don't. When you don't, when you have very brown and you're not growing weeds. I don't think that's a good sign. Oh yeah. 17:14 - Cal Hardage (Host) Yeah, now when you Talk about rotating or moving your cows, what kind of target are you? Are you looking at Once a day move? Are you looking at a certain pound each per acre? What's? What's some your thought pattern on deciding how much area you're giving and how soon you're moving them? 17:34 - Alejandro Carrillo (Guest) Yeah, well, yeah, as you mentioned, we have to. People have to make a decision or how often they want to move. We started with once a week and then every three days. And then I call one of my friends on the network and say, do you really see a difference? Because he was already moving once a day. And I asked him do you really see a difference between moving once a day and every two days? And he said me oh, yeah, big time. Okay, let's go and go once once a day, move city more frequent. 18:05 You moved your her, your lifestyle, the better the diet, because you're preventing those peaks. You know ups and down. So it's a more consistent and it's been a couple years of we're moving twice, twice a day, in the morning and in the afternoon. Now you ask also the question about how many, for example, how many pounds per acre, right, yes, well, that really depends, because we always trying to size the paddock in a 12 hour period, because we're moving towards the day in a 12 hour period. So we say, okay, we have, let's say, in my case, we have 500 cows. How much do I need for 500 cows? And that will depend really on the time of the year you are, whether it rain or it did not rain, and where you are, you know where you are actually in the transition. Because when we were explaining about the natural succession, that doesn't mean that all the ranch is wheat or all the ranch is annuals or the ranch is perennials. You could be a paddock that half of the paddock is perennials, half of the paddock is annuals. So by observing, you say, okay, I need to split it in two. Let's say that you need to split that paddock in two, and then that will be enough for 12 hours each one. But it will depend on that particular case. That particular example really depends how many of the grasses you have are perennials with some green, and so how many are annuals. So it actually becomes like the art of grazing, more than the signs, because if you're in a drought, then you will open up. You will open up because you will not have much green. See, cows really need to have some green because in our particular case, we don't supplement and then we are very keen to detecting that green. And okay, if there's plenty of green, like in the growing season, yeah, we can go up to 300,000 pounds per acre, but if that same paddock is in winter, then we may lower to 100,000 pounds per acre. Or if that same paddock is near the range but it hasn't rained and it's dry, then we can even lower. We can even get to 50,000 pounds per acre. 20:14 So it's really that flexibility that we need to build in our systems. You know, because we're dealing with nature and there's so many variables and you cannot I cannot say to people this is the formula, this is the prescription they really need to observe. Then actually they could play with the time or the size and then make the decision almost almost I can write on this path in our particular system or approach is that we actually change the size of the paddock. I mean, that is the building flexibility we have, because when people say, okay, move faster, move slower, no, we don't play with the variable time, we play with the variables like size area. Oh, yeah, yeah. So that actually is the one determining what is the correct conditions for that paddock at that time of the year and whether it rain or not rain. But the ones that give us the feedback every day or twice a day are the cow. 21:17 So we have learned to actually manage based on the well being of the cows and we are working on the majority of the cows because now it comes to the power of the genetics, because, cow, if you think about it, we actually made most of the decisions on the low, on the, on the low performing cows, on the cow who are struggling. You don't make the decisions on the average, you don't make decisions on the good cows Only. For us decision is how much area to give and if you have a lot of cow growth struggling, you're going to give more area. That's why for us is very important to actually be calling the low, the low performing cows often, and we call like once a month. We don't wait for that big event to happen during the year. 22:10 We call often, often, often, in order for us to try to keep the herd clean. You know, like, because when we go and open the gate, we actually, before opening the gate, we are wearing our predator hat. Where are the predators? So we're looking for two or three or five cows, depending, which are at the bottom. It's on body condition, hair coat, ovary fertility, or they may be carrying a tinkica and those are. We wrote, wrote the numbers down and then later on we sort them out out of the herd. So we keep cutting, you know, like calling that bottom in order for us to make better decisions on the whole herd. Otherwise, those cows will actually be the ones that we're going to be making the decision on. 23:04 - Cal Hardage (Host) And there's a philosophy there that I'm not sure I had heard put into words, but you bring up a great point. When we're managing our cattle and we're looking at how much intake we need and what they need, we're looking at those poor performing cows. In fact, if you think about a conventional person and they're thinking about supplement, they're looking at their poor performing cows and deciding how much supplement to give them. 23:31 - Alejandro Carrillo (Guest) Exactly, I'll think about it. We think about it flies. We're always looking at those cows are struggling and then we treat them all. It's the same with the racing management we have. Let's say we have 500 cows and 20 hours struggling. We ended up speeding up, slowing down or sizing the paddock based on those 20. And that's what we're trying to avoid here. We will constantly calling those cows. 24:00 And another very important thing here is that you're calling those cows at a good timing, because timing in our industry is everything. If you actually leave those cows for a while months, then you may need to. You're going to be more costly because any cow with a problem will actually be bigger problem. That way you can actually save those cows. See what we do with those cows are we're calling? We actually send them to a nice well-rested pasture where they usually just record by themselves. You really need to do anything, you don't need to spend much in just management and then, once they get back on track, we sell them. They don't go back to the herd. It's just one way, one decision, because otherwise then we're just going to be like back on four, four. 24:48 - Cal Hardage (Host) You know I hate to point this out, but as you're sitting here talking, I've got one cow in particular comes to mind. She's raising a dink this year and she got sick when the calf was just barely born. I ended up having to bring her in and I ended up doctoring her and I thought I'm selling her. But then she kind of recovered and now she's with the herd right now. But to be honest, and her calf's just not growing, I need to haul them to town. That just stands out to me. 25:21 - Alejandro Carrillo (Guest) Yeah, and as we say, you know, love your wife, Forgive your kid, I do those things to cows, yes, I mean, we know our cows, you know. But it's just like I'm simple to say you know, if you gotta go, you gotta go. I mean, I have sold beautiful cows with a dinky calf or, but yeah, I mean any cow that actually is giving you like taking you extra time, that probably a cow that you shouldn't really have there. 25:46 - Cal Hardage (Host) I love that thought right there. If that cow requires extra time, as I like to tell people when we sell cows, they don't work in our management system. Yeah, exactly. 25:55 - Alejandro Carrillo (Guest) Exactly. I mean, how can we manage way more cows and we have a more quality time? Is because the cows really need to help us. I mean we shouldn't really work in for the cows? The cows should really be working for us. 26:09 - Cal Hardage (Host) Yes, very good. Yeah, One thing when you're you're moving your cows, how much residue are you leaving on the ground when you move them to the next paddock, or what's the target? 26:20 - Alejandro Carrillo (Guest) What we do is actually try to graze as deep as possible, like even. But because we have different grasses for example, we had the Tobolsa, which is very common grass in the Churon Desert. That is usually leave more like a fist high because they don't go lower than that but actually it depends really a lot on the quality of the grass. If you'll see, with a proper management you're going to see how your grasses are very steamy and very little leaves. Through a few years of good grazing management, like more intensive grazing then the same grass is going to have more leaves and less stems, and when the grass has more leaves and the cows are able to eat most of the most of the plant, so we're really not that concerned. Oh well, well, besides that grass, we have the Gramma, the Blue Gramma, black Gramma, psydotes, many grasses that extend from Northern Mexico all the way through Canada. Same grasses, probably different size, but the same species, and those kind of grasses, for example, in summer, during the growing season, yeah, the cows just go pretty low on those grasses. The key idea is for you to actually combine that with a long rest period, and when we say long rest period, we're talking about one year or even a bit more, and that actually I can tell you that I'm applies in most of the Western US, because we have seasonal rains and also all Northern Mexico, some percent of Mexico, is that combination of more intensive grazing with a long rest period that is really giving us more diversity. 27:58 Because what we're struggling here for is we don't want to work anymore for five or 10 grasses, we want to have more 100 grasses, 104. So we are actually getting to working to have more diversity, because also we have found that we have been working for a few species of grasses and we have inadvertently overgracing the diversity that is trying to come up. So you know that, okay, most people say, yeah, let's go and graze that grass at a bootstay when it's forming the seed. Yeah, I mean, it's good for that grass, it's at a very optimal point. But we are not realizing that by trying to keep that same grass at a certain point, we're overgracing for some other grasses that are trying to come up. And yeah, and then if you have that diversity, for example, of four, we'll have much more protein and much more energy than a grass. A grass cannot compete with a four. So that's why we want in grasslands, pastureland, we want that combination, that diversity that will give us even better daily gains than trying to reach a grass at the optimal point. 29:11 - Cal Hardage (Host) So when you're looking at those long rest times and maybe grazing once this year, you have the potential of grazing some very mature plants. 29:20 - Alejandro Carrillo (Guest) Yeah, we do. I mean, we're raising more mature grasses, but that's actually, you know, that is kind of relative because, for example, when we start working in our ranch, the perennial grasses were behaving like annual grasses. Why? Because the way we were raising, like multiple times per year, we were actually overgracing the grass, oh yes, and also the soils were very compacted. 29:49 I think we come through a realization called that the major limitation on grass productivity is not water, is air in this oil. Its aggregation is that those porous airs in this oil, because it doesn't matter how much rain you get, even if that rain actually gets infiltrated, if your grasses actually eat that compaction layer, then your root system is going to go to the sideways, it won't go deeper. And that's what we have seen in most ranches that we visited, because you know, one of the best tools we have the ironical is a shovel. So we get to the chop, we get, and then we get the grass out, and most grasses where we go, they have a very shallow root system. So perennial grasses are supposed to have a very deep root system. They have a shallow root system because of compaction. So what will it help us with compaction? Well, a more intensive grazing compared with a long-distance period. So that same grass that only used to be green like four months, now we are able to have green grasses year round and you may say, yeah, but it makes it go a bit warmer. Well, you know, the same, the same I'm experienced. For example, gay brown in North Dakota is experiencing with that lot of snow. So I'm not saying that the grass is going to be like flash full green, but we have a little bit of green at the bottom and that is enough for the cows to take that rough material you're talking about, because they have green on the grass. 31:25 When we have green on the grass, we have a couple of problems. First, we have to supplement. Second, we're not doing a photosynthesis. And the only way to open these holes, to get more air in the soil, is through the process of photosynthesis, because photosynthesis is going to be feeding the micro, what we call the microher, and that microper, specifically the macarons of fungi, is the one creating the aggregates which in between them. That's where we're going to create the air in the soil. That would allow us to actually infiltrate more water and retain the water where the plant can use it. So it's this whole cycle of life that we're trying to promote. 32:06 - Cal Hardage (Host) Oh, yes, yeah, Moving just a little bit from that. But along the same subject, you also have sheep. Are you managing your sheep and cattle the same way, fortunately? 32:16 - Alejandro Carrillo (Guest) not. I would love to do a better job on my sheep, because the plan for the sheep is that they go wherever they want to go. We only move like on blocks or sections. The cattle, saddle forces, mares and the a few donkeys. They are on the same paddock, on the same small pasture, same paddock, oh yeah, and the donkeys go. I have a shepherd and guard dogs. The sheep, the sheep goes nearby, so we have like three corals across the ranch and three houses and then the shepherd and the sheep. When we move the cattle to the new section, then the shepherd and the sheep go to the next corral, but they could be grazing in front, on the back or around, so we try to keep the sheep nearby the livestock. 33:12 Now, the other thing that I'm now talking about you, about the mob, you know, mobile horses, cattle and donkeys. 33:22 Why do we have the donkeys? Because we have 20 donkeys and we're trying to get to the 10% of donkeys a total. Because, you know, if we believe that what we're doing is mimicking nature, mimicking nature, why are we actually trying to do everything with just cows? Nature doesn't have just one grazing animal and the beautiful thing about the donkeys is that they actually going to take up very low quality like stems and these oxidized grasses and convert that into manure and urine and things like that. So the donkeys are actually allowing us or cows to be more selective, because the donkeys are. I can tell you donkeys are non-selective and that's really helping us to do a better job and more, even grazing. And you don't think about the donkeys. If I were going to start regenerating my place because it was in such a bad shape, I would use probably mostly donkeys, because the donkeys are going to open up a better plan of nutrition for the more selective, like cattle or sheep. 34:29 - Cal Hardage (Host) You know I've heard the conversation about diversity and plants diversity in your livestock too, because you know we're not wanting a monoculture anywhere. But to be honest, you're the first person I've talked to that's talked about that aspect of the donkeys. I could see how that could be beneficial where their intake's a little bit rougher. 34:53 - Alejandro Carrillo (Guest) Yeah, yeah, it's definitely because it's going to take, at least where I am in a more arid environment. It's going to take years to convert that, for example, that to balsa grass, that it will be quite oxidized a lot of stems, not many leaves, a shallow root system into a nice jello full of leaves, no stems, deep rooted grass. It takes years. So trying to go from that point of a grass that is sick, thirsty and almost in a survival mode to a thriving grass with just cows, oh my God, we're going to struggle a little bit. And that's why the donkeys just come into play. I mean could be horses, core forces as well. It's that the evolution of horses and donkeys had been quite different and the way we've been treating horses actually, I mean probably putting aside the mustangs, right, the wild horses, but our forces are really kind of pumper, you know. I mean we like to have nice, shiny, good horses, but the donkeys, who actually cares about the donkey, right? So the donkeys have really much, much manipulated and they actually try better on low quality. 36:10 - Cal Hardage (Host) And I have to admit we have a few donkeys, just a handful, to go with the sheep and, to be honest, as we're talking about, I'm like where are those donkeys right now? I need to go figure out where they are, because they can be a little onry about that sometimes. But yeah, I give them zero preferential treatment. But then again, I'm pretty pragmatic on my. Animals should be working and not me. 36:36 - Alejandro Carrillo (Guest) Yeah, exactly. And then, for example, people who have a mountain range, like I do, have mountains in the other ranch or we call Sierra the donkeys are really really good on that, because the donkeys are really good at walking. See, you can actually do some, stop munchip and drive your cattle to the mountain range, to the slopes and everything, but they have their limits and then you can see that and you can see always the donkeys on a higher ground. So actually donkeys are helping to graze parts of the mountain range that the cattle will not be able to do it. I see the donkeys as a big goat, but not having the problem with predation, and then you're using the same fences and so on. 37:21 - Cal Hardage (Host) That's an interesting analogy, as the donkeys is a big goat and you did mention you have a few goats as well. Yeah. 37:29 - Alejandro Carrillo (Guest) I have a few goats, but actually goats are more like our own consumption. We like to eat goat once in a while. Yeah, but it's not a commercial operation but actually for commercial purposes. For as a business, it's the cattle and the sheep. 37:43 - Cal Hardage (Host) Oh yeah, and where do you market your cattle and sheep? 37:48 - Alejandro Carrillo (Guest) We did a little bit of deer marketing with our cattle and sheep. Actually, we have ground beef, ground meat which is 80% beef and 20% lamb. But we also market dry jerky beef. Jerky beef is just that the Mexican version is slightly different, because the Mexican version of jerky beef, which we call carne seca, is more like a crisp, like a sheep, and then it only has sea salt, so it kind of breaks, you know. So, yeah, so we're marketing that, but it's still a small percentage of the total. So all we do is with the, with the coal cows cool animals. They go to a local market, whilst private treaty the guy goes to the ranch. We we waited there and then it's all at the gate and the steers. We had the option of selling these tears on the Mexican market or the US market, whatever is more convenient at that time, price wise, very good when. 38:50 - Cal Hardage (Host) Where do you see your ranch going the next few years, or what's your plans for it? 38:55 - Alejandro Carrillo (Guest) Yeah, you know what we're trying to do, coffee is to make the operation as simple as possible Because, remember, as last author said, the cattle business is a simple business, the most complicated things. To keep it simple oh will lie it for my rush to be managed by a key or a very old person and not to have anything complicated. So we tried to keep it as simple as possible one tractor, what smoke truck and and a few forces. Right now, what we're doing, try well, keep it, keep, keep the ranch simple, keep the cost very low and also increase the Stalking rate. Right now we're running a 500 cows and now we're working on the water system to be able to support 200 cows. So the idea is to go from 500 cows to 200 cows. I don't really have a set limit because, you know, sometimes it rains good, sometimes it doesn't rain, but I'm actually working now on the water system to Support more cattle and the nice thing about it is that it's on the same brand with the same people. 40:02 - Cal Hardage (Host) Very good, very good, alejandra. It's been a great conversation thus far, but it's timely. No, we don't really switch gears too much, because we've been covering this as we've talked more into our overgrazing section and we had discussed a little bit about greening the desert. When you say that, are you going out there in planting seeds? 40:24 - Alejandro Carrillo (Guest) I think it's very important all that because what was in North America? I think that's one of the major advantages we have over other many countries. Our countries Used to the bison, the deer, the antelope, the elk, the moons and so on. They are grazing animals and they they really used to keep our, our souls and our grass is very healthy. So in our particular case, you know when, when Mexico was New Spain conquered by the Spaniards, they left a lot of writings, a lot of things that they saw. I don't know if you know this call, but when the first priest Spanish, spanish priests came to, well, they were in Santa Fe and they were trying to find away from Santa Fe, new Mexico, to California. So they reach what is nowadays Utah, and they reached the Salt Lake City and they said that the grasses there were taller than the saddle and that they wasn't. That was the most beautiful place that they have seen in old New Spain. So think about it. You go to Utah right now. That's played. Oh my god, it's like. Oh, so you. 41:42 One of the challenges, cal, is that people are trying to sustain what they're seeing. What we're seeing is a very degraded place. I mean pretty much all across, all northern Mexico, western US. We don't want to sustain that. We want to regenerate the land in such a way that we are trying to go back to those beautiful scenes, those beautiful views that the fruits explorers used to experience, but because we don't have the conditions right now to actually live, while with bison and well, I mean obviously all those elements are important but we have the livestock. We have the livestock that actually can help us regenerate the places in such a way. 42:26 For example, in my property we have grasses that are like a seven feet tall, eight feet tall, for example. That is called the green spangled top. Actually, in the state of Chihuahua we have already found the gamma grass, I mean the cream top of the cream. Those are native as well. But in order for those tall grasses to succeed, you cannot be grazing multiple times per year because you will be killing that grass those tall grasses will need and they are very palatable grasses. I'm not saying like, because we have other grasses that are not like the cotton top. They are good, they are tall, but they are not very palatable to the cattle. But the grass that I'm telling you, like the green spangled top and the gamma grass, those are really excellent grasses, but they need a full year of rights and that's why it's so important in the long, just period. 43:21 And if you go to the literature of those grasses, the readings of those grasses, the they're going to say those grasses needs at least 20 inches. Well, we can grow tall grasses with just six inches. So it's all about the what you do with the soil. That soil will actually be able to drink more water, more effective rainfall as defined by Alain Severy because it was a study done in Colorado and as well in Chihuahua will we all live between like 20 to 40% of the rain. Think about it If I'm in a 10 inch precipitation area, I'm only getting about four inches effectively. My God. That's one of the reasons why we can really never get out of the drought, because we have a shallow root system, grass are struggling and then a very ineffective rainfall. 44:10 - Cal Hardage (Host) And as you, you start to get that progression where you're starting to get more grasses in. Are you seeing that same progression on the desert where you're getting the, the forbs and the weeds come up before you're getting some of these more desirable species? 44:26 - Alejandro Carrillo (Guest) Definitely, I mean, something is happening at different times or different parts of the ranch. So historically we have very good grasses and the seed, the seed bank in most places, is still there. That's why you've had that hard pan on the top of perl brown, because nature is trying to protect the seed bank. That's why it's good to have the hard pan when you're not managing well and that we have the hard pan because that's strong, the seeds. If you're talking about land that was previously farm, that is going to be a bit more challenging. But if, if that land, the only thing that they have had is only overgrazing, then the seed bank is going to be there. 45:04 But more important than that, having the seed bank is actually to create the conditions for the grasses to germinate. Because it doesn't matter if you've all rined up to my ranch and collect those seeds from the tall grasses and then put into your property. If you don't have created the conditions, they will not germinate. But if you created the conditions, even if the seed bank doesn't have the seeds, nature finds a way to put those seeds there. Actually, through wildlife, to birds, to livestock, to deer, to through the wind, to the water. But the important thing is to create the condition for those seeds to germinate, and what are those conditions that you're creating for it to germinate? 45:48 Yeah, the condition we create is, first of all, it's very important to extend the green season, for the grasses like to see. What our souls are lacking is biology. It's pretty much that biology like life in life above and below ground, and this, let's say, would put an example. It could be sheep or donkey, but let's say that is the cow that is bringing that biology through the manure to the urine, to the saliva, even the act of breathing, to the hooves that is actually feeding that soil. So that's all is going to be. I just say no great, now we have more biology and then we can grow better grasses and the grasses are going to feed the microbiology and that will actually start fixing the water cycle. See, because everything goes around water cycle. 46:41 How many damp beetles do you have? Well, let's say that you don't kill the damp beetles right without remecting. How many damp beetles do you have? Well, that depends obviously on our warm season, but also on the most during the summer. I mean same deal for termites. All the different elements are helping us regenerate, because it's not only livestock, it's also the insects that are going to line up with us and help us regenerate the plant Very good. 47:08 - Cal Hardage (Host) Alejandro, thank you. We really appreciate the conversation, but it's time we go ahead and move on to our famous four questions we ask of all of our guests. Our very first question what is your favorite grazing grass related book or resource? Oh, that's a great question. 47:26 - Alejandro Carrillo (Guest) You know there are some many states in the US and also in Mexico. They come out like this conservation districts or even at the state level. They come out with these different grasses per state. Those are my favorite ones. No, because I cannot look at it. You know, obviously we have also publications here to identify the grasses. But I learned from those books a lot and that's what I've been actually reading about. But it's actually specific to each location and whether or not the state or the district have already come out with that booklet you know that you can actually refer to. 48:03 - Cal Hardage (Host) Very good, yes, excellent resource. Our second question what is your favorite tool for the farm? 48:11 - Alejandro Carrillo (Guest) My favorite tool for the farm, well, it's the horse. For us it's the horse because, see, I told you, calda, we move twice a day. So the mornings we move, we do it on horse and the afternoon we do it on foot. So you actually see different things from the horse and on foot you can actually identify different cows that are struggling. By actually going on foot or going on horse and not actually horse actually help us to monitor what is next. We go and let's say, we go to a pasture that is divided into multiple parrots and then we determine, by running on horses, what is how we're going to divide that pasture based on what we see. And well, the second tool that I love is the shovel. The shovel because it really teach a lot about the soils. 49:01 - Cal Hardage (Host) One thing interesting there you brought up astride a horse. You have a different viewpoint than if you're walking and I really hadn't thought about that, that's. It's a different vantage point that really gives you a nice overall view of it. That could be a really good selling point to convince me to get another horse. We sold our horses because they were consuming enough grass, too much grass, and we weren't using them. I could definitely see a vantage from being on a horseback to see the condition of your land from a little bit different angle. 49:38 - Alejandro Carrillo (Guest) Yeah, I believe we are into the mid-sized to large properties where I mean we're lazy, we don't like to walk that much, yeah. So yeah, the horses will give you that easy going. You know like getting a lot of ground cover by, and then you're making the minimal effort. 49:57 - Cal Hardage (Host) Alejandro. Our third question is what would you tell someone just getting started For the? 50:03 - Alejandro Carrillo (Guest) people who are starting, I would recommend a couple of things. First, to educate themselves. See, one of the things why we really haven't didn't make much progress, let's say, 10 years ago, 20 years ago is because we didn't know how the tools we have to share, like all the social media Facebook and Instagram and YouTube, and so many information that is out there all these, like today, you know these beautiful tools that you're using. So let's get more. And also, it's very important for them to go and visit branches that are doing something already. So we have really that great opportunity right now. There's really no limits in regards to the material that is out there. 50:47 Just incredible that you can listen, you can read, you can actually and, besides education, just to give it a try, I think we need to see our places more, like labs, laboratories, we and then do small trials. 51:02 For example, if I tell you, okay, if you do this, you use the good pasture in your run and then you just give me seven days on that pasture and then you move daily on those seven days, or one week with your cows, right, so at the time that you're only giving them 24 hours of feed, then you automatically are getting more intensive grazing right Seven days. And then the deal here if you're in the western US or even maybe where you are to protect that area for a whole year, then that will give you like a good reference to say, oh my god, I'd like it because I'm seeing more diversity, I'm seeing more biomass and so on. So those trials, and if we work as a community, then you can do two trials and the other guy can do two trials and then we are going to make much more pros, much faster. And yeah, that's my recommendation do more, try more at small scale and keep what it works and actually educate yourself in so many tools and books. 52:06 - Cal Hardage (Host) Excellent advice there. And lastly, Alejandro, how can others find out more about you Under my? 52:11 - Alejandro Carrillo (Guest) name. We're in Facebook and LinkedIn. We also have an Instagram account with the name of the ranch Las Damas Las Damas cattle ranch and, yeah, you can follow us there. We try to post as often as possible, or even actually webinars, podcasts, workshops that sometimes we do. Actually, we're doing a workshop in Oklahoma next year, so I keep you posted. Oh, yes, please do yes. 52:38 - Cal Hardage (Host) Well, very good, really appreciate you coming on and sharing today. 52:42 - Alejandro Carrillo (Guest) No, thanks for the opportunity. It's been a pleasure to share some of our experiences. 52:47 - Cal Hardage (Host) Thank you, sir. You're listening to the Grazing Grass podcast, helping grass farmers learn from grass farmers, and every episode features a grass farmer in their operation. If you've enjoyed today's episode and want to keep the conversation going, visit our community at communitygrazinggrasscom. Don't forget to follow and subscribe to the Grazing Grass podcast on Facebook, twitter, instagram and YouTube for past and future episodes. We also welcome guests to share about their own grass farming journey, so if you're interested, feel free to fill out the form on grazinggrasscom under the be our guest link. Until next time, keep on grazing grass.