e79. Embracing Diversification with Naudé Schoeman

00:00 - Cal Hardage (Host) Welcome to the Grazing Grass Podcast, episode 79. 00:05 - Naudé Schoeman (Guest) Everyone's situation is different. Everyone needs a different type of cow or a different system to use that works in their area. So there's not always a specific answer to the questions that you have, and sometimes the best way to find that out is to taste it and figure it out by yourself. 00:24 - Cal Hardage (Host) You're listening to the Grazing Grass Podcast, helping grass farmers, learn from grass farmers, and every episode features a grass farmer and their operation. I'm your host, cal Hardeech. On today's episode we have Nodias Schoonman from South Africa. He's 18 years old and he lives on the family farm where they raise grass-fed beef and mutton also some pecans. Very interesting story, finding out what they're doing In addition to the farm. They also have some destinations or rentals or Airbnb's as another income stream, which is very interesting. I think you'll really enjoy today's conversation. 01:08 However, before we talk to him, 10 seconds about my farm and like this, 10 seconds deteriorates or changes to every week or very frequently it's the weather. We are getting some rain and I'm very excited about the rain. We are in a D1 drought, so we're not really in a drought, we're just abnormally dry. We're right on the line. If you go to, if you go north west of us, it really gets dry. We're in pretty good shape right here, but we have slipped in from D1 level, which is abnormally dry, into that, or D0, which is abnormally dry. We've slipped into that D1, which is just the start of a drought. 02:04 I watched Sunup that's put out by Oklahoma State University and on their show last weekend they were talking about over the last year. We're down about 10 inches of rain. We've actually had it spread out pretty good, but we've been dry lately. So, aside about this rain, my rain gauge was not as full as I was hoping it was or would be, but it's still coming down, so still hopeful there Weather's cooled down. That's really nice. I hope things are going good where you are. Let's talk to Nodia. Nodia, we want to welcome you to the Grazing Grass Podcast. We're excited you're here today. 02:45 - Naudé Schoeman (Guest) Thank you very much, Kel. Thank you for having me, yeah. 02:47 - Cal Hardage (Host) Nodia, can you tell us a little bit about yourself in your operation? 02:51 - Naudé Schoeman (Guest) Okay, so I'm 18 years old. I'm finishing school this year. I've been helping on the farm for the probably from 2017 a lot. We run this farm as the family me and my mother and father and my brother my brother's two years younger than me. The plan is to go and study at the University of Northwest and then, after I finish that, I'll be coming back to the farm and farming. 03:23 - Cal Hardage (Host) With your schooling there are you finishing up school this year and then you'll go to university next year? 03:31 - Naudé Schoeman (Guest) Yes, so I do homeschooling, so I do Cambridge. So I'm writing the last exams now. In a month I'll be finishing and then I'm going to this university. 03:45 - Cal Hardage (Host) Oh, okay, and where are you located? 03:48 - Naudé Schoeman (Guest) We live in Potschevström in Northwest. We live here in the Fredaford Dome World Heritage Site where our farm is situated next to the Wall River. On our farm we do accommodation, like weekend accommodation that we rent out for family getaways and things like that, and then also the food production, which is beef, mutton, peanuts, and we're starting with vegetables this year. 04:17 - Cal Hardage (Host) As your farm always did beef and mutton. 04:21 - Naudé Schoeman (Guest) So we add beef on the farm. But in 2015 we had a drought, so then we had to sell most of our cattle and we actually restarted the cattle farming again in 2017. And then from there we started building our herd again to get it to the point where it is now, again at the much bigger scale. We only had about seven left in the beginning of 2017. 04:51 - Cal Hardage (Host) And what kind of cattle did you purchase? 04:54 - Naudé Schoeman (Guest) Initially we started with an Goonie cattle, which is an indigenous breed, but we had some problems with the carcass quality of the Goonie so they didn't put on as much fat as we would like for the meat that we sell directly to the consumer. So we started crossing them with Buran, which is also an African breed, and the Buran has a lot of the same attributes as the Goonie the fertility and the parasite resistance. But they also gave us that bit more fat on the carcass, which really helps a lot to give you much better carcass quality and also take your cattle through the winter much stronger. 05:42 - Cal Hardage (Host) For our listeners that aren't familiar with a Goonie or Buran, you talked about them just a little bit. Can you describe them in a little bit more detail, how big they are? 05:54 - Naudé Schoeman (Guest) They are both medium-framed cattle. I believe the Goonie, more like the cows, are like 350 kilograms I'm not sure what's the ratio to pounds. And then the Burans are a bit heavier, they would be more to 450 size. But we don't want a big framed animal because big framed animals can't really live in our environment, because we have a lot of mountainous area and rocky area, so we need something that can climb into the mountains and get food in some places where it's not accessible to most cattle breeds and also during droughts and winter they have to maintain the body condition and that's much easier for bit smaller framed animals. 06:46 - Cal Hardage (Host) I'm with the Burano on there. Are they able to finish on grass? 06:52 - Naudé Schoeman (Guest) Yes, so our cattle live on 100% grass. We don't give them any supplement grain or anything like that for growth. So it is very important for us to finish our cattle on grass only, and the boron really brings some good attributes to make that possible for us. 07:14 - Cal Hardage (Host) And what kind of forage are your cattle grazing? 07:18 - Naudé Schoeman (Guest) So our farm has mixed forages. We have a range of forages from a bit rocky mountain areas with hard grass and very low carrying capacity, and then we have some places that's more valleys with deeper soil and better grass quality. Our rainfall is about 26 inches a year in a 46 month period. In the summer we get most of our rain, yeah, I think it's more dry than most of your areas there, yeah, and it's a lot hotter, so we need animals that can adapt to that. 08:00 - Cal Hardage (Host) So you have a really rainy period and then dry winter and the rest is pretty dry. What kind of challenges do you guys have to deal with? 08:10 - Naudé Schoeman (Guest) We have to have a very good plan of how we're going to graze during winter, because we don't do any winter feeding or pale grazing or anything like that. You really have to have a set plan in the beginning of winter of where you're going to graze and how you're going to get through the farm. And still I have grass left because sometimes the rain can be unpredictable, so you can have rain coming two months late and then you still have to have extra grazing left in case that happens. So we have a system of grazing called eye density grazing, where we move our cattle at the base times eight times a day. Sometimes, in like in winter, we'll maybe move them twice a day or once every two days or so. But that really helps to utilize your grass as effectively as possible and not waste any grass, and it also really improves the quality of your graze lens. 09:19 - Cal Hardage (Host) That sounds like quite a bit of work to move them that much a day. 09:23 - Naudé Schoeman (Guest) Yes, so we have one which we call the herder, but it's not really a herder. It's the guy who moves the electrical, the temporary electric fences that we have. So he's with the cattle the whole day and we have two guys rotating, so one week they work there and then the other week they change. So then the other guy works there. So if it's far from our main farm where we live, they sometimes even sleep in a tent closer to the cattle so that they can spend enough time there to move them as much as possible and keep an eye on the cattle. And that also really helps with disease prevention, because sometimes if there's a sick cow they see it within the first day or two and they see that cow and you can treat it. And same with the calves or anything that can be a risk to the cattle is really eliminated by that herder being with the cattle every day. 10:25 - Cal Hardage (Host) And you said that just while ago that you're using electric fence to create your paddocks for each move. 10:32 - Naudé Schoeman (Guest) Yes, so we have temporary electric wires. In summer we use one strand of wire and the sheep is still kind of a problem for us. We don't manage them as effectively as we want to because they move with our herd of cattle. They normally walk in front so they kind of graze selectively, but the cattle come after them and clean it. In winter we use two strands of electric wire just to keep the cattle in when the swirl is dry. 11:07 - Cal Hardage (Host) So you're, basically you're moving your cattle and sheep together, at least fairly close together. 11:14 - Naudé Schoeman (Guest) Yes, so when we are more in open pastures where there's not a lot of trees and bushy areas, we like to keep the sheep in front of the cattle so that they get enough nutrition, because after the cattle pass there's really not a lot of forage left. But when we're in an area where it's a little more like on the hangs of the mountains or even areas with more bush, then they will come behind the cattle because they can get into that branches and places where the cattle can't reach and then they'll eat in there and graze more with the leaves and things like that. So then they'll graze after the cattle, but they normally, yeah, they graze together. So the sheep also has a temporary corral where they sleep at night, which get moved every once or every second night, which really helps for the parasites. So they move together permanently. 12:13 - Cal Hardage (Host) What kind of sheep do you have? 12:15 - Naudé Schoeman (Guest) So the breed that we use is called a meat master. It originally started as a breed between the Dorper and Damara, so the Damara, which was a really hardy breed that could withstand very harsh temperatures and really difficult conditions. But they had a bit of a problem on the caucus quality, similar to the grunis that we have, and then they crossed them with a Dorper, which wasn't as hardy as a Damara but they had very good caucus quality and then they just started selecting for the attributes that they wanted. So the meat master is also very hardy, very fertile. 13:02 - Cal Hardage (Host) Now I'm assuming the meat master is a hare breed, since Dorper is. 13:07 - Naudé Schoeman (Guest) Yeah, the meat master is a hare breed. I think it makes it a bit easier. We really want a system that's not very high maintenance, that's a low impact, easy system to use, and that's why we want these breeds. That's not a lot of work and needs a lot of attention and can actually kind of survive on their own with only the help of us with the grazing management. 13:33 - Cal Hardage (Host) Now one thing with your sheep and cattle is, I think, about South Africa I'm not sure where all the large predators live in your wildlife there and does that cause some management challenges for you? 13:52 - Naudé Schoeman (Guest) In South Africa we don't really have, like most people from out of South Africa believe, lions walking around everywhere. We do in fact have leopards that will occasionally move around here, but they're not really a big problem. Every now and then, every few years, we'll lose a few calves to them and then we'll realize that the leopard has passed again, or we'll see warthogs that have been caught and eaten. So then we know. But the real predators that we're dealing with is more smaller, like jackals, and smaller cat breeds that can. That's more dangerous to the sheep. So we have a really good fence for the sheep with a sleep at night which is strong enough to keep predators out and then to keep the calves safe. We really select for good mothers in our cattle. Our cattle also have horns. We don't remove their horns, so that helps to keep predators away. 14:52 - Cal Hardage (Host) With your sheep. You talk about pinning them up at night. You also have your herdsmen out there. That's moving your cattle and sheep multiple times a day in the US US other countries too but we use livestock guardian dogs. Do you all use anything like that to help protect your sheep, or is it mainly just the herder and the nightly pins? 15:14 - Naudé Schoeman (Guest) Yeah, so we have considered using guardian dogs. We've looked into it, but at the moment we're not really losing a lot of lambs and calves due to predators. So we feel like maybe in the future that would be something that we could consider, but at the moment it's not really a problem for us. So it's just going to make them management harder to keep a guardian with them. And the other thing is also we don't know, because it's not a lot of people use livestock guardians here. We really don't know how it would fit into our system and how it would work, but that's probably something to consider in the future. 15:55 - Cal Hardage (Host) Oh yeah, you have to figure out what works for your area, and if it's working good, what you're doing, then by all means continue. Do you have your cattle and sheep, lamb and cavit the same time, and what time of year is that that? 16:13 - Naudé Schoeman (Guest) they cough in the beginning of summer or in beginning of December. So the reason why we decided on that first thing is that if you look at the antelope around in our area they all lamb and cough at that time. So automatically with we realized that that's more than natural time for them to lamb. And then we we found out or some people told us and we did some we found out a little bit about what what other people said. They said that when you have a high body condition on your cattle when they cough, the chances of them getting pregnant is again is much higher, and that we've really seen that that we are getting a higher pregnancy when we let them cough on green grass so that the condition is better. 17:05 And then with the sheep we still kind of finding the breeding season for the sheep. Currently we let them lamb in late summer, so then the condition of the, the ewes, are still high. But then you don't get that parasite infestation on the lambs, because that can really set the lamb back and lambs can get much weaker if they get attacked by by parasites. So that's been working very good for us letting them lamb in the end of summer and going into winter. Then we also don't wean our lambs because we not like the conventional system on a eight month lambing period. So basically that putting the rams in every eight months, we on a yearly system. So the ewes that wean their lambs by themselves and then they'll be ready to get made to the game in the end of the next year and at what age? 18:02 - Cal Hardage (Host) are you all slaughtering or processing your lambs? 18:07 - Naudé Schoeman (Guest) so the lambs, we currently processing them between one and one and a half years, so then we can get the the grading that we want. In South Africa they work on the A2, which is the base. A is the age of the lamb, which is the youngest, and two is the amount of fat. So A2 is the perfect lamb that you can get, but in the future we'd like to, with improving our genetics, move to more between eight and eight months and the years, or probably about ten months, would be the ideal time to slaughter them, but we haven't been able to do that just yet oh yeah. 18:48 - Cal Hardage (Host) And with your cattle? At what age are you processing them? 18:52 - Naudé Schoeman (Guest) so we process our cattle at about three years of age. The thing with the oxen is we they keep growing. So the longer you can keep your oxen, the better. But so we'll probably in the beginning, when we do pregnancy tests on our cattle, will start by slaughtering cows that didn't get pregnant and then, as soon as they we've slaughtered all of the cow will move off over to the three-year-old oxen, which will then be slaughtered in the next few months, normally about between three and four years. You can slaughter them at two and a half years if you really need to. So let's say, for example, that it was drought or something and we needed to get rid of some of the cattle. We can slaughter them earlier as well. They still have grade two grading, so they are fat enough, but they just have a smaller carcass, which is a bit lower profit and do you all? 19:47 - Cal Hardage (Host) is the plan to to sell direct to the consumer? 19:52 - Naudé Schoeman (Guest) yes, so currently we processing one cow every second week. We process our meat by a processor that we know and then we sell the meat directly to the consumer. So we don't have any pork into in our sausages and what we call Buddha of all ocean, south Africa. We don't have any, so any pork in there, so it's a hundred percent beef. So we we can assure our customers that it's a clean product that they're buying and we're also mixing the herbs that we use in our and in our put, of course, ourselves. So that's that you're not getting that processed and GMO things that you would buy in in the shop and when you direct the market, direct market your beef and mutton. 20:39 - Cal Hardage (Host) Are you located near a big city or do you do farmers markets? Do you all have farmers markets or is it more? 20:47 - Naudé Schoeman (Guest) just the consumer comes to the farm no, so our farm is about 30 kilometers out of our town, which is put your stream. But your story is quite a big town. We still call the town I don't know if it classifies as a city it but yeah, and so in porch we also have the University of Northwest, so it's quite a big town. We, on Saturday mornings, we go to a I think it's like a farmers market, basically that we sell our meat, so we our grass with meat mostly gets marketed from there, but then we also market is via what's up and then people just picks it off from a place in town with where we are delivered from very good. 21:32 - Cal Hardage (Host) Yes, now you all started doing this about. I guess about five years ago, you all bought some cattle. What have been some challenges that you you maybe didn't anticipate? 21:44 - Naudé Schoeman (Guest) I think one of the biggest challenges have been getting getting into the mating season. That's really difficult with the cows to get them all lined up in the same season. Sometimes you lose one year from a cow if you want to move them to the right mating season. So that's been one of the big challenges and we've only now hundred percent fallen into that, that mating season. But I think probably the other thing is pregnancy rate. I've moved now to a much more effective leak that we use mineral supplement, that we mix ourselves, that I've really pushed our pregnancy off from 60 something percent to two other 80s so that that's made a huge difference in our pregnancy rates. And at the end of the day that's really where, where the profit comes from is the break pregnancy rate yes, that makes a big difference when you're able to increase that pregnancy rate. 22:43 - Cal Hardage (Host) now, no, do you just about the general cattle production in South Africa? I've never been there. Can you just tell us a little bit about how beef cattle are raised in South Africa? Is it something we'd be familiar with or not? 23:01 - Naudé Schoeman (Guest) So the normal system that's used by farmers is this probably farmers that do the cow-calf operation and they just supply calves to the feedlot farmers. 23:15 So the feedlots will normally buy that from the, from the farmers, the calves, and then they'll raise them and then probably sell it again to the next line in the chain that sells it to the consumer. So it's a really long line from farmer to the consumer. We're trying to get that line shorter. And the thing is also with the breeds that's normally used in South Africa is not the most grass effective breed. So we strive to get an effective grass converter into meat. But these cattle are bred for high feedlot conversion, so to get as much growth from the feed that they take. And that's completely different cow than the one we're trying to breed. 24:04 - Cal Hardage (Host) And what breeds do you typically see? 24:06 - Naudé Schoeman (Guest) So we have a lot of the most, probably one of the most popular breeds in South Africa is the Bonsmara. I don't know if you know the Bonsmara, so that's as far as I know. It's across. It has some short horn in Aireford and then also an African breed, the Afrikaner. So that's probably the most popular. And then you have Aireford Angus and things like that. But this grass, more grass, type of cattle is really the demand for them is really increasing for things like Buran and Guinea. That's a much more constant form of income and a lot, a much lower risk for the farmer. 24:52 - Cal Hardage (Host) So that was leading into my next question. Are you seeing grass-fed products and regently practices on the increase? 25:02 - Naudé Schoeman (Guest) Yes and yes and no. So you always have that one part of the market who just wants the cheapest product they want. They're always looking for the prices and they don't really care about the quality of the product. And then the other side, we really have an increasing market of people who's really doing a lot for their health. So when they see us and they see we have 100% grass-fed beef and mutton, they are very excited and glad that they can finally get this product, because it's really not very popular. We're probably the only people in our town doing it and yeah, it's. 25:42 You don't see a lot of farmers that's doing this 100% grass-fed, because it's a much longer process. It's a lot, much longer time before you turn that cash around because, like I said, it takes three years and you have to work on your cow genetics, on your hair genetics. So it's probably we now, after five years, only first getting the best, the first calves that we really want, and we're not getting the amount that we want yet. We'd soon like to slow it to five a week, but it really takes a long time to get into that system and I think that's what a lot of farmers are scared of and they don't want to change their system. That's much longer system. Yeah, slower system. 26:26 - Cal Hardage (Host) Oh yes, very good. Now you mentioned earlier, you also have the pecan trees. 26:31 - Naudé Schoeman (Guest) Yeah, pecan trees. Our pecan trees are not into in production yet. So we have about what's it? 17 acres, I think, of pecan trees, or 15 to 17 acres, but they're still small, so they are not in production yet. We planted the last lines this year, so they will, as far as I know, take between five and seven years before they will get into production. But yeah, then we'll start marketing from there as well. So we're trying to diversify our farm as much as possible that lowest risk but we don't want to do it all at once, so it's a slow process. If you're going to focus on too many things, you're not going to do it properly. 27:14 - Cal Hardage (Host) It does take time. You're right With those pecan trees. Are you all grazing that area right now, or is it something for in the future, when they get more mature? Do you plan to graze it? 27:30 - Naudé Schoeman (Guest) Yes, so we do graze the pecan field from time to time. So what we try to do is, with the high density grazing, we're not trying not to graze a place more than two times a year, so once or twice a year. So we'll probably come in late winter or so and clean that area so that we can have an open area to work with to replace the trees and to plant new lines of trees. So we do graze that and we'll just put temporary electric fence around each tree just to protect them while they're still small. But we also have electric fence around the pecan nuts so just to protect them from monkeys that can eat the nuts later, but also now against porcupines and things, because especially now in late winter we are moving into summer now the porcupines don't have a lot of food in the wild, so then they'll come in and they'll eat the trees. And the first year that we planted pecan nuts trees we lost all the trees that we planted. I think we planted about 500 and they ate all 500 trees. 28:42 - Cal Hardage (Host) Oh wow, porcupines, I couldn't have told you they would come in and do that. That's interesting. 28:47 - Naudé Schoeman (Guest) Yeah, we also didn't expect that. It was really a shock. The first year before we had a fence to see all the trees being eaten. And every morning we get there and then there's again a few trees, 20 trees eaten, and then before the next year we lost all of them. So then we decided the next year we're going to put a guard there during the night just to protect them while we were putting on the electric fence so the permanent electric fence around there. And since then we haven't had a lot of problems with the porcupines coming in and eating the trees. Oh, yeah, yeah. 29:28 - Cal Hardage (Host) Now, in addition to your the bee, the mutton, the pecan, nut trees, you all do accommodations. Tell us a little bit about that, just so we have an idea of what you're doing there. 29:41 - Naudé Schoeman (Guest) Okay, so our farm, like I said, is situated next to the Wall River, so it's also in the 304 Dome World Heritage Site, so it's kind of a tourist destination as well. So we have a few houses that we rent out, ranging from a two-sleeper to a 14-sleeper. That's normally used over the weekends, sometimes during the week as well, and over school holidays we are really fully booked. And then, yeah, it's just a nice getaway for friends and family, to especially porch, and we're not too far from Chauberg as well, so we get a lot of guests from there. 30:24 - Cal Hardage (Host) So that's a great way to increase diversity on your farm and increase the income. Has that presented any challenges to your grazing operation? 30:36 - Naudé Schoeman (Guest) Not specifically to the grazing operation. It does give us some challenges with the work force sometimes, because sometimes there's things that needs to be done at the cattle, or I mean at the livestock, and then there's also something that needs to be done before the weekend at the houses cutting or mowing the lawns and things like that. That's sometimes a challenge, and so to use the work force effectively is sometimes difficult. But it didn't really to the grazing system. It doesn't make it hard. Actually, the grazing system helps with the houses, because all our houses have roofs, so like grass on the roofs and that's really a fire risk. So in the beginning of winter we'll graze an area all around the houses in order to just save them from felt fires, because that's really a big risk in our areas the fires that come in late winter, and because we have a mountainous area, it's very hard to kill that fire. 31:45 - Cal Hardage (Host) So if you have a fire that can run for kilometers, oh yes, that's a great use of your resources to negate or negate a potential risk there. 31:58 - Naudé Schoeman (Guest) So in the beginning of winter we'll first start by grazing the highest risk areas around the houses and then also around our farm. We can call it a fire barrier, basically a 30 meter barrier around the farms, because we take off all the grass. We use 100% of the grass by the cattle, so then that strip really helps. And then we'll also cut the farms into blocks and so then when it burns you can kind of manage that blocks so that it doesn't spread throughout all the farms. 32:38 - Cal Hardage (Host) Oh yeah, sounds like an excellent plan there. So do you typically see wildfires each year close to your farm, or how big a risk is it? 32:49 - Naudé Schoeman (Guest) Yes, so this year we've been lucky so far. The last fire was about 10 kilometers away from our farm that they just stopped today, but this year we've been lucky nothing too close to ours. The last really big fire that we had was in 2018, where it burned down thousands of hectares in our area, and Then that was just. It was a bad wind and the fire just ran too fast to control. But since then, a few small fires here and there, but but the the fire barriers really helped a lot Since we've been doing that. So we feel safer when there's a fire in our area Not to say it can't reach us, but it's not that much stress when there's a fire. 33:41 - Cal Hardage (Host) Yeah, I, I see what you're saying there. You brought up a few things. You're working on your genetics with your animals to get them to be. You know more of what you're wanting to market and get that quality product. Yeah, I've got the pecanut trees planted for future and you've got the accommodations, so you have a lot of things going on as you look towards the future and going to university In your brother getting older. What some of those plans for the future for the farm? 34:10 - Naudé Schoeman (Guest) Yeah. So we kind of in a difficult place now. We have a lot of things that's almost ready, yes, so probably by the time I'll be back those things will be Be in motion. But I'd really like to to expand the Beaford a lot and the mutton and all of this small things that we've started and get it into a proper Weekly slaughter there so that we have our own slaughterhouse on the farm and process, process our own meat and things like that, and just We'd like to just get the scale of what we do now much bigger. So we not not necessarily planning for maybe we'll do something like pastured pork and Tried eggs and things of like that. Maybe that will be something that we can consider in the future, but for now it's just to expand what we that what we've been building up to now. 35:06 - Cal Hardage (Host) Oh yeah. Well, no, dear, let's take a little bit of a shift and go into our over grazing section, where we eat Whoa I don't even know what I'm saying when we talk about something in a little bit more detail and one thing Talking about is managing your ecosystem and improving it, and you're using grazing to do that. 35:30 - Naudé Schoeman (Guest) So we, before we did high density grazing before 2017, we really started realizing there was something wrong with the management. We saw erosion, we saw patches of grass dying, push encroachment killing all of the grass. We, the wildlife, started disappearing and we knew something were wrong. And we heard about this new system and making Big herds of antelope and we started applying this and just the the guy or the as we Get got to know it in the beginning is removing all of the grass, like a big herd of antelope would come and Really trampling some of that grass. And they've made a lot of sense because now you have a barrier, they're protecting this wall cap, keeping moisture in, keeping the temperature down, and we've seen an explosion of Wildlife, of birds Coming back. Like I said, war dogs, even though the leopard comes now and then or the lipids and catches a calf or two, that's still a sign that that the wildlife is is Restoring. 36:45 We have good news and we have small antelope that's around here and it's just amazing to see how the grass have improved. You see, places where we have bear air we are where we had bear areas in before is Lush grass and but places where we had bushes taking over this now Still trees and you're getting more of the savanna effect, with trees but grass growing under the trees and and it's. It's amazing to see our that's everything's coming together Just by doing a small thing like changing the grazing management and we also trying to keep we we're not using any Poisons for any trees or we're not spraying poison or even on our cattle. We're doing since 2018. We haven't done any Parasite treatment because our environment is so healthy and the system that we use just the Parasite scant handle, handle it. So we haven't had any tick problems, things like that, just the ecosystem. You can see the ecosystem Getting better again and that's that's amazing to see how everything fits together as soon as everything's healthy. 38:01 - Cal Hardage (Host) How soon after you all started with your high density grazing and did you start noticing an increase in the wildlife diversity? 38:10 - Naudé Schoeman (Guest) So the wildlife diversity From the time when we started it, we started to keep taking off some of the inside fences on the farm and things like that, so so the animals automatically add more roaming space or that they're easier for them to roam around. So the it really takes a long time and I think we're gonna see much more happen. But since the time we started it was just we saw it building up, and Probably now this year and last year we have seen the most, the biggest difference in in the number of of wildlife that there is, but I think we don't know what it is yet. And the other problem is that now, when we don't have predators or a lot of big predators, we have to find out ways that balance, and we we will have to start hunting Without hunting too much, but keeping that balance. 39:08 - Cal Hardage (Host) So that's something that will still need to figure out and did you notice when you start your high density grazing on the vegetation there? How quick was the adjustment to your vegetation? 39:20 - Naudé Schoeman (Guest) So within the first year we we've seen a difference. I I'd say the biggest difference was after three years three grazings basically. Then we saw an explosion of different grass species that we haven't seen before and in areas where there wasn't a lot of grass. But but within the first year you can could already see that green spots, where, where you had manure spread, because now You're, manures also spreading much more evenly than before when you had a, let's say, a 400 acre camp and let the cattle graze the whole area, you only have manure at the water, at the water and the leak, but now they spread it more evenly. 40:00 So you, the first year we did it, we saw this, we didn't realize what it was. We saw this green spots and we didn't know what it wasn't. The next year realized oh, it's the manure. And we saw dung beetles, a lot of dung beetles returning and it looked almost like mole, some of the, the dung beetles, because they they can dig up to a 1.2 meter hole. So so within the first year we have seen a difference. But I'd say three years was the, was the biggest. 40:29 - Cal Hardage (Host) Oh, yeah, yeah, and with your high density grazing. One thing you've talked about is those multiple moves during the day. Did you all start immediately when you all got your cows and 2018, with those numerous moves during the day, or did you work up towards those moves? 40:48 - Naudé Schoeman (Guest) Yeah, so in the beginning, like I said, we only had seven oxen that was still left of the previous area that we have. So we, we moved, we gave them a small strip and we moved them about Twice a day or three times a day, moving them only one meter at a time. So we, we try to do it that regularly from the beginning. But I'd say we do graze more intensely now that the Dispigger. We've bought in some cows over the years and the Progeny has also grew up to give their own calves. So yeah, I'd say it's more effective now. But but the amount of moves pretty much stayed the same from the time when we started. 41:32 - Cal Hardage (Host) Okay, very good. Well, no dear, it is time for our famous four questions. Same four questions we ask of all of our guests. Our first question what is your favorite grazing grass related book or resource? 41:47 - Naudé Schoeman (Guest) So I don't know if I would be able to name a specific one, but I have listened to the podcasts that you have on Spotify, so it's really easy to wherever you are, wherever you are going or whenever you can put that on and listen to the podcasts that you have. And I'm really glad that you're starting in Africa and South Africa also now, because that's really interesting to learn from farmers in our area as well, so I'm very excited for that. 42:19 - Cal Hardage (Host) I agree, we are working to get more international guests on here so hopefully we can grow that presence and just give voice to more voices out there. 42:31 - Naudé Schoeman (Guest) Yeah, yeah, that's wonderful. 42:33 - Cal Hardage (Host) So Dia, what is your favorite tool for your farm? 42:37 - Naudé Schoeman (Guest) That's a difficult one. The one thing that we wouldn't be able to live without is probably the electric fences. We don't have a lot of gadgets and things that we use. We try to keep electronics and things like that in the field now as minimum as possible. So, for example, we have an ox wagon with two oxen that helps moving the electric fences and buckets and things like that and that's the kind of things and the bicycle is probably the most high-tech thing that we use other than the electric fences. So in the field we try to keep it low maintenance. But I think without the electric fences it would be much more difficult to do this system. There is some people in South Africa who use their deem only, but in our area I don't know if their deem would be effective. 43:37 - Cal Hardage (Host) Electric fences done wonders for frequent moves. For our third question what would you tell someone just getting started? 43:46 - Naudé Schoeman (Guest) I'd say probably the thing that I've learned is that there's not always an answer to the question that you're asking. Sometimes I want to start something and I try to Google as much look on YouTube, look through books, everything and then I can't get the answer. And it's not because there isn't an answer, it's because no one has tried it yet, and sometimes the best way to learn is just to try something on your farm and see, because everyone's situation is different. Everyone needs a different type of cow, maybe, or a different system to use that works in their area. So there's not always a specific answer to the questions that you have, and sometimes the best way to find that out is to test it and figure it out by yourself. 44:39 - Cal Hardage (Host) Yeah, great advice, great advice, Nodia. Lastly, where can others find out more about you? 44:46 - Naudé Schoeman (Guest) I have an Instagram called Life in a Dome. You can see there sometimes I put some things about the farm and how we graze. You'll get some information there. Then we also have a website, skuman's Hof or wwwskuman'shofcoz. That's our website. We don't have as much information about the grazing and the farm more, so that's more the accommodation, but you can see some of our things today. And then we also have a Skuman's Hof grass fed Instagram. That's the meat side, and mostly Skuman's Hof on Facebook. So you can check all that social media platforms and then you can message us or you'll get our number on that platforms if you want to get in contact with us. 45:44 - Cal Hardage (Host) Very good, nodia, I appreciate you coming on and sharing and we'll have those links in our show notes, and I encourage you to go look at the Instagram accounts because they've got pictures of cattle and terrain. Especially for someone from Oklahoma, to see what it looks like in South Africa is just a treat in itself. Nodia, thank you for coming on and sharing with us today. 46:11 - Naudé Schoeman (Guest) Thank you very much for the opportunity. Cal, thank you for giving me the time to tell you about what we're doing here and what we're achieving, and we upgrade the nightshades working for us. Thank you very much. 46:25 - Cal Hardage (Host) You're listening to the Grazing Grass podcast, helping grass farmers learn from grass farmers, and every episode features a grass farmer in their operation. If you've enjoyed today's episode and want to keep the conversation going, visit our community at communitygrazinggrasscom. Don't forget to follow and subscribe to the Grazing Grass podcast on Facebook, twitter, instagram and YouTube for past and future episodes. We also welcome guests to share about their own grass farming journey. So if you're interested, feel out the form on grazinggrasscom under the Be Our Guest link. Until next time, keep on grazinggrass.