e139. From Homestead to Thriving Ranch with Eileen Napier

Transcript generated by Podium.page Help us spread the word by tweeting about us at @podiumdotpage and including us in your shownotes! https://podium.page NOTE: There were 2 speakers identified in this transcript. Speaker separation errors can arise when multiple speakers speak simultaneously. 0:00:00 - Cal Welcome to the Grazing Grass Podcast, Episode 139. 0:00:05 - Eileen Keep asking why, just keep asking why. There's a lot of it. There's just so much advice. 0:00:13 - Cal You're listening to the Grazing Grass Podcast, sharing information and stories of grass-based livestock production utilizing regenerative practices. I'm your host, cal Hartage. You're growing more than grass. You're growing a healthier ecosystem to help your cattle thrive in their environment. You're growing your livelihood by increasing your carrying capacity and reducing your operating costs. You're growing stronger communities and a legacy to last generations. The grazing management decisions you make today Impact everything from the soil beneath your feet to the community all around you. That's why the Noble Research Institute created their Essentials of Regenerative Grazing course To teach ranchers like you easy-to-follow techniques to quickly assess your forage, production and infrastructure capacity in order to begin grazing more efficiently. Together, they can help you grow not only a healthier operation, but a legacy that lasts. Learn more on their website at nobleorg slash grazing. It's n-o-b-l-e dot org. Forward slash grazing. This week's grazing grass farmer of the week is Eileen Napier of Ramstead Ranch in Washington. We talk about their journey of going from two acres to what they have now going on. Starting at two acres, some of us may think, hey, that's a limitation. Eileen found some ways for them to get started with poultry on small acreage, then they've included sheep and now on their current ranch they have sheep, pigs and cattle and then they work with some local farmers for the poultry side of it. Very interesting episode to follow their journey. For the overgrazing section, we talk about team management, because no longer is it just the founders working on the farm or ranch, it is a team of employees they have to manage, and we talk about how they manage them. For 10 seconds about my farm. I have a black Spanish buck for sale. If anyone's interested, shoot me an email, cal at grazinggrasscom. I'm located in Northeast Oklahoma so I've had him used him last year. I was planning on using him this year. However, he has recently figured out how to get out of my fence and he is doing that. He will. He was doing it nightly, not a big deal. He was staying right here on the farm and I thought, well, he's going to earn himself a vacation from the farm because I don't have time to put him back in. However, he has not gone on his vacation yet and my neighbor called after dark the other night that my buck was about a half mile from the house and I didn't go get him that day because trying to drive a black buck in the dark is quite difficult. I was able to locate him the following morning and drive him home. I have him in and I've weaned my buck kids so now that they are with him so he's got some company to stay put, but I prefer animals stay in their pastures. He is a very good buck. If you have different fencing than I do, he might work for you For 10 seconds about the podcast for Grazing Grass Insiders. We have our first monthly Zoom next Tuesday at 7 pm. We're going to talk about types of grazing and what kind of grazing you should be doing, and also for Grazing Grass Insiders. Today's episode has a bonus segment and it's about fiber production and use. Very interesting. I find that fascinating. Not something I'll probably ever do, but I do find it really fascinating. Anyway, it's a wonderful episode today and let's go ahead and talk to Eileen. Eileen, we want to welcome you to the Grazing Grass Podcast. We're excited you're here today. 0:04:39 - Eileen Yeah, thanks for having me. 0:04:40 - Cal I'm really happy to be here, Eileen to get started, can you tell us a little bit about yourself and your operation? 0:04:47 - Eileen Yeah, I am a co-founder of Ramstead Ranch. Stan Hayes and Jean Hayes are also my partners and co-founders and we started our ranch I mean, it was a journey that started back in 2006 on a two-acre piece of property that was basically a mixed residential area where we had animal rights, where we were able to raise, you know, chickens or have horses and that sort of thing. But our neighbors didn't and they had manicured lawns and so did we to begin with, and we decided, hey, we want to start raising our own proteins. We're already doing garden boxes and, you know, keen on having clean vegetables, and we made a go of it with meat chickens to begin with, and it wasn't too long after that we were doing turkeys and then some sheep, and then it just grew from there and we've transitioned now onto what today is a 240-acre ranch that is full-blown regenerative grazing and we're grass finishing, beef and pasture finishing pigs in the northeast corner of Washington state and we do direct market sales with all of our meats as well. So that's kind of where we've been and where we are today. 0:05:59 - Cal Oh, very good. 0:06:00 - Eileen A lot going on there, yes. 0:06:02 - Cal Yep, Yep. Now, when you all started, you mentioned some garden boxes and stuff. Were you all selling veggies at that time? 0:06:09 - Eileen No, it was it all started, yeah, it all started with we want to know where our food's coming from and, of course, garden vegetables are amazing and it's fun and you know, we we kind of had the bent to be homesteaders and just back to the land and learn how to do it ourselves. And yeah, not only the growing and the raising, but there was also an interest in sheep, so sheep that grew wool for fiber arts and hand spinning and that sort of thing. So we just really wanted to try it all out. 0:06:40 - Cal Did you? When you were growing up, did you imagine this to be your life? 0:06:44 - Eileen Oh, not at all. So, personally, none of us come from agriculture. The three of us individually have come from various backgrounds and none of us were born into agriculture. We had some exposure. I rode horses when I was young and I loved pets. I had a rabbit and I had dogs and I loved being outdoors. It's really more of an interest in being outdoors and being in touch with nature and then learning in our adult lives the reality of what the food system in America is sort of typically based on. And seeing what that does to our health over time and going, hey, we can be empowered to do it differently. So I was exposed to permaculture when I was in college and I went to Colorado State and there was a student-run vegetable garden, a sustainability group, and so I participated in activities with them and learned a lot that way. But it was farming and ranching and agriculture was really still a pipe dream. It was like you know nobody, you know you can't really get into this unless you were born into it or unless you grew up doing it. And it wasn't until we I would say yeah. So 2006, we were watching a reading Omnivore's Dilemma and you know and right, and then got introduced to Joel Salatin and his methods and he's obviously all about you can farm, and so oh yes. Yeah. So it was like, well, that kind of blew the doors off and it's like, hey, yeah, let's, let's try this. Like you know, there is a way. So yeah, started the same way the gentleman was introduced to the omnivore's dilemma and that started his whole journey, so very interesting. 0:08:32 - Cal Two weeks in a row it was completely pivotal. 0:08:33 - Eileen Yeah, so you started with your garden, but then on two acres in a housing addition, basically, well, it was mixed residential, so I mean you know, there was tree and there was planters around the house that had concrete curbing and there was grass that you know we were laboring to mow and it's like we literally plowed up the front yard and planted pasture grass and started raising chickens and you know we did our version of the chicken tractor and the egg mobile on a small scale. Yeah, there was. There was a little. There was a plot of trees that kind of needed to be fend, and so we got in there and cleared out the overgrowth and that became the turkey shelter so that they could get out of the river. And yeah, it was great. It was really like an urban adventure, suburban adventure. 0:09:26 - Cal Right, and the thing that jumps out at me at first you didn't have a HLA. I'm thinking. 0:09:33 - Eileen Right, no, no, no, that's true, no, but we? I mean no, we didn't, and we had animal rights, but we had to defend those animal rights. You know like there's a lot of there's. You know we had to defend those animal rights. You know like there's a lot of there's. You know there's the. The trend is to try to remove that sort of thing and try to say, try to dictate to people that no, this is. You know, we're moving away from that. But it was like, hey, these, these were animal rights. We, you know, we, you have it in print that this is this is what we're zoned for. And so we stuck to them and and yeah, and made a go of it. 0:10:06 - Cal And then, even even if you have those animal rights, a lot of people want to come in and dictate how you do it. 0:10:11 - Eileen How you do it, or yeah, or or complain and say you're not. You know you're causing problems and it's you know. We we had an amazing robust pasture in the in the back area and we had neighbors whose gardens weren't doing well and they were trying to blame things on us and it's like how is it possible that the corn on our side of the fence is like going gangbusters and our animal activity is somehow impacting your strawberries? That sort of thing. 0:10:41 - Cal Right, yes, yeah, so you've got to learn how to get along and harmonize, right. 0:10:44 - Eileen Yes, yeah, yeah, Maybe you got to. You got to, you got to learn how to get along and and you know, and harmonize yeah. 0:10:50 - Cal When you started you I think you mentioned you started with pasture poultry or chickens first. Yes, and that was because you were because on the board uh dilemma and Joel Salatin and way he was doing stuff. 0:11:04 - Eileen Yes, and it was really the. I mean, we knew that we didn't know that much and that we were going to try this out and ultimately, it's very easy to get out of the chicken business. It is, you know it's a low barrier to entry and it's easy to say you know what this isn't. For me, it was a nice. We gave it a try. We don't love it, we're done. So that's why we started with chickens. 0:11:27 - Cal What did you? What was the biggest surprise for you? 0:11:30 - Eileen How delicious homemade home-raised pasture. His chicken hiss. 0:11:36 - Cal It's just like the difference between garden vegetables versus store vegetables. 0:11:41 - Eileen Yeah, and, and, and, maybe even more. So, yeah, you're absolutely right. It's like, this is like it's. This is what wholesome that tastes like, this is what, and and you hear the stories it's it's really true, and that this is what meat used to taste like and this is it's got texture and it holds up when you cook it and you know it's just. It's just robust and it's hearty and nourishing. So that was the thing. 0:12:07 - Cal Just on a tangent on that, Eileen, I grew up on a dairy, so we drank raw milk all the time? 0:12:13 - Eileen No, we grew up on it. 0:12:15 - Cal It wasn't until I went to college that I started having to drink store-bought milk. And I went and I have a degree in animal science. So I went through some fluid milk processing classes and stuff and people would tell me there's no taste difference between them. I'm like, oh yeah, there is yeah. 0:12:32 - Eileen Then you don't know, yeah, there is. 0:12:36 - Cal Yeah. 0:12:37 - Eileen Yeah, and it's interesting too, because when you do it for yourself and you, you know you, you sort of we entered it, and I think most people enter it out of a passion for change, and so there's, you know, you kind of have to question like am I just kidding myself? Like am I just do? I just want it to be different, because I've got so much invested not not just in my time and and and you know the now our front yard is full of chickens, but you know, passion, am I just kidding myself? But then you turn around and you start to sell products and you get people like we, we lived, we were in a community, we were in Lewiston, idaho, and so there's plenty of agriculture around there. To folks who are not far removed from the land, and I mean ladies who are like they. They buy a chicken, they go home'd come back to the farmer's market the next week and go I haven't tasted a chicken like this since I was a little girl. And like they remember it. So it's like OK, well, I'm not pulling the wool over her eyes and I'm not convincing her of anything and she's coming back and saying I remember chicken like this when I was a little kid. So it's. It's nice to get that kind of validation that it truly is different. It's not just because I want it to be different. 0:13:47 - Cal Oh, yeah, yeah, when you all got started with poultry low entry barrier, low barrier to exit Low barrier to entry? Yeah, Did you also find. Did you find the market there? And readily available. 0:14:03 - Eileen To sell. 0:14:04 - Cal Yes. 0:14:08 - Eileen Well, I would say yes, but that's twofold. I would say, initially we also weren't, you know, we weren't charging enough, like you kind of start out and go. Oh, these are my neighbors, you know. But no people like we did. You know a self-serve refrigerator for our eggs, and so it was just, you know, on our system, come get your eggs and drop your money off. And we had to limit who we told, because it would easily be turned out. And then the same thing with the chickens. You know it was like you get the word out to a few people and folks who know and kind of there's kind of a community built around it, especially when it comes to finding people who maybe have food sensitivities. They're struggling to find food that doesn't set their system off. And it's work right, because you can't just go to the store and buy stuff. So there tends to be support networks or networks around that sort of thing, and so it was pretty quick that we were we'd meet one person and we would kind of get introduced to friends, their friends and things like that. 0:15:11 - Cal Oh, yeah, yeah. How long did you all stay at that? Two acres producing. 0:15:15 - Eileen I think we were or maybe a better. 0:15:17 - Cal Sorry, eileen. 0:15:18 - Eileen Yeah. 0:15:18 - Cal Maybe a better question is how did you expand on that two acres? Yeah, that's a great question. 0:15:23 - Eileen So we were. I would say we were there for two and a half to three years before. I would say three years before we were really like ready to launch and and expand. Oh yeah, but it wasn't a matter of like it was. It was a matter of we were looking for land before that and we were destined to be to have property and at least do the homestead experience on a larger scale, regardless of whether it was going to have a property, and at least do the homestead experience on a larger scale, regardless of whether it was going to be a business or not. And so that was kind of in the works. So it wasn't so much that, all right, we're going to build this small business and the business is going to be the thing that launches us onto a new piece of property. That's not a realistic expectation, nor is that how it happened. It was really a planned. Like you know, this is in part retirement, in part long-term goals and things like that. But it was you know, it was two years before of experience that said hey, we can do this on a larger scale. Like this is something that we're you know it's a good sit, we're able to do the you know, the processing and the butchering ourselves. No one's getting scared off of that or turned away and turned off by it. And let's, let's take it to, let's bring the small operation to the next chapter. 0:16:36 - Cal When you were still there on the small acreage and you'd started the poultry and you'd mentioned, you added turkeys and stuff. Did you add turkeys at that time, while you were still in the two acres? Did you expand beyond chickens at that time? 0:16:49 - Eileen At that time, yes, so we on that piece of property, I want to say at the height we did. I think we did about 300 chicken meat chickens. 0:16:58 - Cal Oh yes. 0:16:58 - Eileen We would have had two. I think we had about 100 layers, less than 75 to 100 layers. Our first batch of turkeys, there were 40. And then we had five lambs as well. 0:17:15 - Cal Oh yes. 0:17:16 - Eileen Yeah, so we brought them on as young ones Five lambs I guess and then we had I remember we had our first lambing season there, so they went a year and were bred because we didn't breed them as lambs and they produced lambs there that first year, in their first year, and we definitely transitioned that flock of five ewes and their lambs onto the new property. 0:17:44 - Cal Oh, yes, yeah, this is good. This is making me remember back back the the timeline and how, how it happened well, it just shows that that if you're dedicated and you're like I'm going to do this, two acres is enough to do a lot, a lot, absolutely absolutely yeah I mean, as long as it and I think I hear this a lot of times people get small acreage and they immediately want to get large ruminants, cattle and stuff. But really starting with smaller poultry, with your small ruminants, that gives you the ability to actually be more than just one animal and start getting something in motion. 0:18:22 - Eileen Right, absolutely. And the species diversity too, like with you got your chickens and your sheep are a great small acreage animal. They really are, and especially with the fertilizer and that sort of thing, and especially if you've got weeds, I mean, how many people are moving on to a property that needs rehabilitated? In our area of the country there's knapweed and sheep are just oh, they're just great for eradicating it and turning over pasture into just revitalizing. You know what's there in the seed bank, that's, you know, already baked in the soil. 0:18:58 - Cal Yeah, I'm going to make an assumption, Eileen I assume those first sheep you got were wool sheep. 0:19:06 - Eileen Yeah, yeah, and they were. They were Romney sheep and we still have Romney sheep. We adore them and their fiber is wonderful and it's great for hand spinners. But they're also a really docile breed. They're really cute and they're very hardy, so they're dual purpose. So they they're. They're hardy for for the weather, but they're also hardy because their hooves are very resistant to hoof rot. So if you're in a wet area. You know they they're Romney because they're. They originated in the Romney Marsh of England where it was wet and boggy and so they were adapted to that wet environment, and so the foot rot doesn't plague them as much as it can in other breeds. 0:19:48 - Cal Oh yeah, that's good to know. I didn't realize that about Romney. To be honest, I'm not super familiar with wool breeds outside of what gets shown at the county fair. I see them around. 0:19:59 - Eileen Well, the other cool thing about sheep is that you know they've been domesticated for so dang long and so adapted to the specific region where they've come from. That it's kind of. They're kind of like a niche animal, that if you've got a purpose, there's a sheep out there that will fit that purpose, oh yeah. You know, and that's kind of what's cool about them. One of the many things. 0:20:23 - Cal Yes. So before we went on, a little bit of tangent about the sheep. You all moved to your bigger property. What was that move like? What did you jump in? I mean, you get to the property. It's not ready for you, you're ready for it. 0:20:38 - Eileen That's right. That's right, and so it was strategic. So that's a really great question. So, for example, it was kind of like by, by species and so and, and like most, I would say, probably like most people who get into this adventure you're you. You start, you dabble in it, and then you fall in love with it, and then you want to do everything, and then you probably overdo it a little. And so and and and you. Then you find out, you grow and find out what that boundary is, and then and then, hopefully you have the sense to kind of rein in back in a little bit and come back to a more sustainable level. So with for us it was, it was easy to go. Okay, we're going to start. I want to say I think we probably did 75 turkeys the next year, like we did 40 the first go. Oh yeah, it was successful. They're great, we love turkeys. Next year, okay, let's do 75. Well, the property's not going to support that. So we started them and then we just created a. We started them at the original property, had the larger property in development and it was like, okay, well, we can start with a turkey pen and do an aerial closure because we're out in, we're near a river, so aerial predators are as big of a threat as coyotes. And so well, we created a paddock for them that was able, we were able to rotate. I say a paddock, I mean it was a, it was kind of an ape large in the orchard and so an area that we could rotate them through. So it was kind of a species at a time and it's like, okay, how can we make the turkeys self-sufficient as much as possible so that they need as little babysitting and start there and then and then that let once they're up and running, okay, that still allows people to be here to build fence for, like, the next generation of animals which would would have been cattle or you know, make sure we have the field fencing we need for sheep and like that. Yeah, and so it was. It was kind of a a seasonal and by protein, by protein slash species that we the the improvements. 0:22:39 - Cal As you're expanding. Were those additional species you added because you thought, oh, I want to do this other species, or did you have some customer drive there? 0:22:52 - Eileen It was because we wanted to do them initially and it was a small cow-calf herd and in part it was also thinking about a business plan. That was you know, we're out in the West and it's a long way to a population base and if we're going to be doing farmer's markets and that sort of thing we've got to be able to be. we've got to be able to make every road mile count and rather than show up at a farmer's market only selling chicken, it was like, well, you know, at some point we're going to have beef, let's have, let's do beef. How about pigs? And so it was. That was in part because we wanted it for ourselves, but also like thinking down the road, this is this we're going to want to do this for, for business purposes too. 0:23:36 - Cal Oh, yeah, yeah. When along your journey did you kind of make that shift from just doing the homestead to this this is going to be a business. 0:23:46 - Eileen Yeah, and so I would. That was, the year was 2013. And that was after we'd. You know, we, we moved, we, we acquired this property in 2008. And from there it was it it had. There was no, there was not a complete fence on the property, like you put an animal on the property it was, it was free range, open range. The property, like, if you put an animal on the property, it was, it was free range, open range. And so so we had to there is there is, there was a standing barn, but it it needed a roof and et cetera and the place had been overgrazed so it wouldn't necessarily support that rate of animal stocking rate and so, yeah, so that was 2008. We started, we just started building as far as, like the orchard, we put in early Cause you got to start with those trees early on. And then it was, and then it was just start to build, to build fences, and so I think our, I think our cow, calf herd arrived, I want to say 2010. Oh, yeah and yep, and then, and then we were, and only one of us we kind of transitioned as far as who was living here full time. So Stan started here initially and he was the one really pushing a lot of the building and the infrastructure improvements. And then I moved here in 2012 and came a full season before. It was like, well, we're going to start back, like now we need to start hitting markets, otherwise our freezer is going to be over full. 0:25:03 - Cal Oh yes. 0:25:04 - Eileen This is where the rubber starts to hit the road. We need to make a plan and really make some sales start to happen, and so that's when we really started focusing on the selling side of the business. 0:25:16 - Cal Were you all at the time when you started doing the farmer's markets. Were you all still processing all your own poultry at the time? Yes, and just for a lay of land. I know you're in Northeast Washington. How far are you traveling to your farmers market and how big of a city is that? 0:25:38 - Eileen Yeah, so we have local smaller markets, but we were really targeting. We wanted to go to a farmer's market with a broader base. And so we go to Spokane and we go to Coeur d'Alene and we had also done, we had also gone to Sandpoint when we first started, because it's a great community and they're all pretty well equidistant from the ranch, which is about 70 miles, 70 to 80 miles. Oh yes, one way, yeah, oh yeah. 0:26:03 - Cal Mm-hmm 70 to 80 miles. What one way. Yeah, oh yeah. And did the farmer's markets work out? Well, did they work as you thought they would? Was there some gotchas in there? 0:26:12 - Eileen I mean, I think the gotcha is that we were listening, we had our ears open to the advice of others, which is that farmer's markets are not typically going to float your ranch. They're not going to necessarily support your ranch with the sales that you need, but they're a great start. They're a great way to learn about marketing, learn who your customer is, get that relationship, get that, get that feedback going. It's also they've also got to be kind of multi-tiered as far as you go to the farmer's market and you've got the products that you sell at that market, which is great and it would be ideal if that could be the end of it. But, like I say, what we found is it's not going to support you full time, maybe unless you're closer to a larger city a larger city. So you've also got to be collecting emails and building an email list so that you can reach those customers year round, or reach those customers when they're not coming into the farmer's market weekly, so that you can do a delivery route or you can develop some other sort of fulfillment chain. And then there's also the art of getting pre-orders, which is, hopefully you're coming to the market with some guaranteed sales that you can just hand across the desk and go hey, we're bringing product that we know is pre-sold. The customer's already placed the order. They're going to show up, they're going to take the order and go home, and that's not. It's not speculative sales. 0:27:40 - Cal Oh, yes, yeah. So there's a few things in there I'd like to unpack a little bit, but the first thing I want to talk about is that capture of emails. So you have a list and all I really want to say right now. I'm very impressed with it, because I went to your website earlier looking over it and you have a virtual tour of your ranch and you have a virtual tour of your ranch. So I clicked on it. 0:28:06 - Eileen Well for me to watch it, I had to put my email address in. 0:28:13 - Cal You know you're giving something of value to someone and it's a little bit of a I don't know. I hate to call it a pain point, because it's not really a pain point. It was really simple but normal. I just thought that was a great way to capture an email address of someone visiting your site and then the follow-up was I got an email and it included a link to that video and you mentioned hey, share it with your friends. I just thought that was very well done. So, whoever was responsible, I was impressed with the workflow and how it captured my email, because I don't like putting my email out there I mean, I do everywhere, it seems but I tried to not just do it and I thought that was a really nice way that you did that. 0:28:56 - Eileen Yeah, nice. Well, I'm glad you say so and yeah, and I think it's important for farmers, especially who are selling their products, to understand that what you're doing is of value and it's not a big ask. If someone's genuinely interested in your farm, they'll give you their email. 0:29:16 - Cal Right. 0:29:17 - Eileen If you're giving them value. So hey, see how our farm, see how our animals are raised. It's a virtual tour. We'd love to have you come here personally, but for now here's a quick video and, of course, if they don't want to give you your email, they can go to YouTube or whatever. 0:29:32 - Cal There's lots of ways to see that video, but the intent is there. 0:29:34 - Eileen Like hey, yeah. I'm curious enough, I'll give you my email and you'll give me a nice video experience Cool. 0:29:41 - Cal Right, If you want to get around it, you could. But there's, yeah, it was. It was painless to go through and do and, like you said in the video, at the end, you all invite them out to your farm, which I think is so important and I'll be honest, it's not something I do. a good job of. So I really like that. Nice. I'm just unpacking a little bit there, talking about that farmer's market journey and it's not quite enough. And you talk about building routes and making sure you had pre-orders ahead of time, which the pre-orders I hadn't even thought about. That's a great thing, but on the routes, are you all running a route now to deliver meats? 0:30:22 - Eileen Yes, we do. It's a once a month delivery route and it's just. It's one loop and what it does is it. You know it connects our farmers markets, essentially so that we can continue to serve those customers. In the wintertime. Our markets here are seasonal, so typically, May through October, and that way we can still service them before Thanksgiving, before Christmas and then through the winter months until it's the summer market season again. 0:30:47 - Cal Oh, very good, and on those routes do you have like a drop-off point? You'll be in this town at so-and-so time. Come here. 0:30:54 - Eileen Yes, and so it's. You know it's, it's for for many people it's an inconvenience, it's because it's a hey, you got to meet us at this time. 0:31:01 - Cal It's the reef window. 0:31:03 - Eileen We need you to be here and then we're only there for so long. But I think that also means our customer base is really. They're really dedicated, they're committed. If they can't make it, they'll send a friend or something like that. But we've definitely tried to communicate that this is how we operate. If you can join us, awesome, here's how you can connect and here's the schedule. And if you just explain that to people up front, they have the option to say yes or no. Oh, yeah. Works for me or that doesn't. 0:31:35 - Cal Right. 0:31:36 - Eileen Very good. 0:31:37 - Cal Let's take a little bit and just talk about what species you have on the farm currently on Ramstead Ranch, yep, and what you're doing right now and we'd already alluded to some of it. We'll get there in a moment, but let's first start with just your species. You're continuing to do. 0:31:55 - Eileen So we've transitioned, we've reduced the number of species that we raise, and so we're currently finishing grass, finishing beef beef, and we're pasture finishing pork, and so we do still have our sheep, because we love them and cannot be without our adorable fiber sheep. But what we've done is partner with folks who are pasture raising chicken and pasture raising turkeys to do that portion of the meat raising. 0:32:23 - Cal Oh, OK. So now you're not doing the poultry yourself or turkeys yourself, but you're partnering with people with the same principles, ideas as you to provide that product for your customers. 0:32:37 - Eileen Right, it was not long, I mean, I would say it was probably 2019. Yeah, 2019 that we really started to evaluate. Hey, if we're going to continue to do this and grow our business to a scale that's comfortable, where we can hire people to support the work that has to be done, we can't continue to do everything ourselves because we're spread too thin. And what you don't realize when you're getting excited and you're building your multi-species operation is that you don't have just one business. You have, you have many. you know you have a beast business, and if you have a cow-calf business and a finishing business, you have two, that's two businesses. 0:33:19 - Cal Yeah, those are two different. 0:33:39 - Eileen Yeah, yeah, into a larger city. You really have to do some legwork and build your customer base. It's not a matter of if you build it, they will come. It's hard and I think people I sure did we underestimated how much time it can take and the dedication it takes, and it's not just. I would say most farmers and ranchers are. They're tough, they're dang tough people and we're used to grunting it out and doing the work until it's done. But the work of marketing is never done and you have to do it with a smile and you have to be creative and you have to be nice to people, even when you're dehydrated and when there's, you know, if there's animals out, or if someone didn't couldn't show up today because they're sick, and it doesn't matter that you're not feeling well, you got to go do it. 0:34:25 - Cal So anyway, oh yeah. 0:34:26 - Eileen I think we've all lived that on some level and so, yeah, so it was a really a matter of like okay, we've got, we've got to simplify what we're saying yes, to reduce the number of things we're saying yes to, and focus on what we do well, what we do really well, and partner with other people and and and. What's cool about that is and you know, initially you kind of feel like you're leaving some things on the table, like, oh, but I love raising chickens, you know, I love, I love that we're pulling the detractors around the pasture, but you do that now. Now you're supporting another rancher, another farmer and who's covering more acreage with regenerative agriculture, and it's like, when you look at it through that lens, that's a real win and we can do more together. So it becomes a network instead of a solo effort. Yeah, and. 0:35:17 - Cal I think that's excellent and maybe that's their strength and maybe marketing's not their strength or whatever it really can be a really valuable relationship to both of you. Oh I agree, yeah, yeah. So with your beef cattle and your grass-fed beef, was there a learning curve for you to get that grass-fed to, to finish well on grass and be able to provide a quality product? 0:35:47 - Eileen yeah, I feel like we kind of started at the top of the food chain with with advice and information, though, because oh yeah you know we really we've we. Early on it was like hey, we're, we don't know this business. We don't, we are, we're not, we're not born into it. It's not like we have to take the herd you know dad's herd and use these animals in order to transition into this grass finishing program it was like we want to. We want to do grass, finished beefs. Therefore, we're going to go out and source the best animals we can to make the best product we can, and so we. We learned early on. You know you want efficient animals, you want short animals. We can to make the best product we can, and so we learned early on. You know you want efficient animals, you want short animals. You can't just go to the sale barn and buy what's coming through that day you got to get, you know, you got to get the guys that have the big barrel bellies that can fill that with grass and gain weight, you know, with ease. And so that was our goal initially, and, and, and. Anytime, and, and, and we were, we were taste testing products as as we could. You know I was like, hey, we're interested in a delicious steak, and you know, what if we were? if we were going to buy animals hey, do you have a? Do you have some steaks? We can, we can try out and see what that product is like. So going slowly and kind of doing the research up front is it pays off? It's not. If you know it's, it's worth it. It's worth asking a lot of questions and trying things out before you jump, before you jump in. 0:37:15 - Cal So as you're looking for those grass fed type of animals, did you settle on a breed or what did you come to on that? 0:37:26 - Eileen I like to say you know, it's not about the breed, it's really about the phenotype. So is it a short, squatty animal? I think there are some breeds we tend to steer clear of because they can't traditionally finish well in our region because they're so hardy, you know, I mean we tried Highlanders at one time and it was like they weren't. They just weren't able to finish in marble as well for us on our pastures. But they're absolutely great animals, a hundred percent wonderful for homesteading and and we loved them. But it was like the when it just came down to like the eating experience. We, we, we. There's. There are some breeds that we avoid. Oh yeah, and typically in our area everybody's got a little bit of Angus in their herd, but there's Charolais that are fabulous too and things like that. But it's more about the phenotype and knowing the rancher where they come from. Have those animals lived low stress? Have they been on the gain throughout their lives? Because I think that's a big part of what kind of gives grass-finished beef a bad name sometimes is that people are selling grass-fed beef but it's not really properly finished and well-fattened. 0:38:36 - Cal Oh yeah. 0:38:37 - Eileen Yeah. 0:38:38 - Cal Right, yeah, I think that consistency of product is an industry problem that we have to address. 0:38:46 - Eileen Yeah, and you know, yeah, it's especially as the consumer base grows and more people are converting from what they get in the store, which may not be as high a quality, but it's dang consistent. 0:38:59 - Cal Oh it is, People are used to super consistent. 0:39:02 - Eileen You know they're used to super consistent. You know we as small farmers and ranchers do have to kind of level up and go hey, there's some expectation here. That is fair. It's fair to want. Hey, I had a good steak yesterday, I want a good steak tomorrow too. 0:39:15 - Cal Right, right, you know, we know what that burger is going to taste like from McDonald's. 0:39:20 - Eileen Yeah, it's the same every time. 0:39:22 - Cal Yeah it is, it is. Yeah, it's the same every time. Yeah, it is, it is. 0:39:25 - Eileen Yeah. 0:39:26 - Cal So, in addition to the cows you mentioned, you all have added pigs. When in your journey, did you decide to add pigs to it? 0:39:35 - Eileen I would say pigs were probably. They were the. I would say they were the last animal that came here to the ranch, probably because the I think we yeah. Probably because they I think we yeah, probably because they were no other reason than everything else was just a little more favorite. On the favorite list, you know it was. It wasn't long after the cattle got here that that the pig, that our first small herded pigs, came, and what are you? 0:40:01 - Cal what breed are you using for your pigs? 0:40:02 - Eileen On pigs, we do raise Berkshire pigs and again it was not only flavor but it was also about animals that are a heritage breed, that are going to do well in pasture. 0:40:13 - Cal Oh yeah. 0:40:14 - Eileen And these guys do awesome and the flavor is just amazing. 0:40:19 - Cal Were you able to source your original stock locally or do you have to go very far? We were able to source your original stock locally or do you have to go very far? 0:40:25 - Eileen We were able to go to source locally. It's pretty easy to find small breeders. It gets harder as you get bigger and you need more pigs. 0:40:34 - Cal Are you all faring out your own sows or just bringing in feeders? 0:40:39 - Eileen No, we have. We've just been bringing in feeders for the last, I would say, since 2021, was our last batch of true, where we were truly farrowing ourselves. Oh yeah, yep, and here and there we'll have a. We'll have a herd but or a batch but but it's not, it's not part of the business plan, it's just for novelty. 0:40:58 - Cal Why did you make that change? Moving over to feeders rather than yeah, again it was it was. 0:41:03 - Eileen it was just to simplify, and so it was just to reduce again if you've. If you've got feeder pigs, that's one business. If you've got a farrowing operation, that's a second business. 0:41:13 - Cal Right. 0:41:14 - Eileen And, and you know, and also, we learned quickly not quickly, but we learned that we were year, it was year round, the demands are year round and we have a proper winter here. And so it was like, well, if we're going to give ourselves a break, if we're going to make a little slack in the system, let's reduce the demand on our winter time tasks, and so that's yeah. 0:41:37 - Cal Going through this, you all have expanded from just the three of you into a team that you're having to manage and actually for our overgrazing section, sponsored by Redmond. At Redmond, we know that you thrive when your animals do. That's why it's essential to fill the gaps in optimizing the nutrients your animals get from their forage. Unaltered and unrefined, our minerals have the natural balance and proportion that your animals prefer. This gives your herd the ability to naturally regulate their mineral consumption as they graze. Our minerals won't just help you improve the health of your animals, but will also help you naturally build soil fertility so you can grow more nutrient-dense pasture year after year. Nourish your animals, your soil and your life with Redmond. Learn more at redmondagriculturecom. We're going to take a deeper dive into that team management and team dynamics. So let's talk about your team you have there and how you manage them and how it works for you. 0:43:00 - Eileen Yeah, yeah, so we have. You know, the total number of employees will fluctuate throughout the year, or higher in the summertime. So we're as few as eight. We're as many as 12 to 15. Oh, yes. 0:43:15 - Cal Yeah, and so it's really a function. 0:43:34 - Eileen What we've tried to do is really create a team where there's not the hierarchy of top-down control, but more spreading things out and giving sales. It's hard, even when you add employees and get the help you need, to not be. It's easy to create the situation where everyone's coming to you for the answers. Haven't built a team that is self-supporting and autonomous, that can do the work without you. They're just dependent on you, and so it's been a real journey to like okay, we got to create the system so that everyone can thrive and own their own position. 0:44:13 - Cal Really, so how did you do that? Because I see a lot of things where it's very much. Well, I'll just use a local example for me my dad. When he comes down here, he expects us all to ask him what to do. Now, I say that a little bit in jest because he lets me do whatever I want, but we do have some people helping us and, yeah, dad's very much the person that's in charge. 0:44:38 - Eileen Yeah, yeah. Well, it's two part. You know it's creating a system using tools that anybody can pick up and quickly learn and get the basics so that they've got a template. For this is the job I'm supposed to do and this is what's expected of SOP standard operating procedures, which can look kind of like a checklist or a simplified bullet point of if you're rotating cows around the pasture. Here's your steps. Here's what you got to do. Here's what you got to watch for and here's what you got to make sure happens before you're done. And then it's also a system of a teamwork that is like coming together and going hey, what are the problems, what are the barriers that we're facing today? What's our common goal as a team? To grow into the future. So, and for that method, we've actually looked at other, into other industries and modeled what they do. There's a couple of methods. One's called the, it's called agile or the scrum method, where you come together as a team to solve problems or to accomplish goals and everybody is a part of that. So everybody has the information, everybody has the opportunity to contribute, or you know kind of punch holes. If it's a problem, hey, brainstorm together or hey, I've got an idea and you never. it's surprising when you pull everybody together and ask open questions and make things transparent. It's amazing the skill sets you'll find in people that are on your team that you didn't realize they had. Maybe you hired them to come do farmer's market sales for you, but it turns out they actually are a spreadsheet wizard and they can run Excel really easily. So, hey, okay, cool, well, here's some other. Maybe you could take this on and handle creating a spreadsheet or some kind of calculating tool that we need to better manage cattle rotation or whatever. So it's really a matter of being more transparent, sharing information with team members so that they can help and that they can understand the problems that the business is facing, that everyone can remove impediments together and therefore more efficiently accomplish goals. 0:47:08 - Cal Oh yes. 0:47:09 - Eileen Yeah. 0:47:11 - Cal Do you all plan meetings every so often? Are they regularly scheduled. Very regular what I'm trying to say. 0:47:18 - Eileen Yeah, yeah, the meetings are, it's imperative, and that's again to just keep in. Yeah, the meetings are, it's, it's, it's imperative, and because, and that's that's again to just keep, in order to keep the meeting short. They're often, and so we do a daily, we do a daily standup 15 minute meeting where it's um, hey, what did, what am I doing today, what are the impediments I'm facing? And that's, and that's it, what did I do? You know, what did I accomplish yesterday? And so that's that's what those they're. They're quick and it's everybody's sharing the information, so it and it helps keep everybody in touch with what the other folks are doing. Basically, what we're trying to do is break down a silo system, the old school way of doing things where you know, hey, maybe marketing's over here working on one thing and the folks you know who are rotating cattle are working over there in the field and they don't necessarily know what each other's facing, what you're contributing to the ranch that day. Maybe they should be working together like, hey, let me know your schedule so that I can come take video of you moving a cattle or whatever. So it just really simplifies and save time. That way we're not all having to like text each other independently and like chase each other down and stuff like that. We know that the meeting is going to happen and if we need to exchange information, that's a good place to do it. Yeah, so that's the regular daily thing. And then we have a once a week meeting where we basically kind of grouped together and talk about what our goals are for the week or the two weeks ahead. And then we also look back and go hey, how did we meet our goal from the last week or the last two weeks and how did that go, you know? So we're constantly trying to like kind of evaluate how we've done things, how the system's working and how well, how efficiently, everyone's feeling the process is running. 0:49:02 - Cal I think that reflection piece is so important. And you know, I think oftentimes we all do it, we all reflect upon what we've done, but sometimes that's where it stops. We've got to take that next step and what did we learn from it? And we got to implement that in our future things. So I just think that reflection is so important. 0:49:20 - Eileen Absolutely it's kind of like. It's kind of like letting the pasture rest, Like that's really-. 0:49:24 - Cal It is a good analogy. 0:49:26 - Eileen That's really like calm down, like let things simmer, let things soak, let things regrow, and when we regrow we'll be better next time, we'll be healthier next time. What have we learned from our last experience that we can take forward and you know, and make things easier and more fun, and that's the idea is that our jobs should be light and lean and not a burden. And if they are, then what can we do to simplify so that we can all enjoy working together and doing more of what we love? 0:50:04 - Cal Right, because if you're enjoying it, it's just going to be so much better. Yeah, and you're going to do a better job. You're going to do a better job. 0:50:11 - Eileen You're going to be more inviting and welcoming when the customers show up. Yeah, it's good for everybody and the animals shouldn't be the only one living a low-stress life. Right that work-life balance and the animals shouldn't be the only one living a low stress life. 0:50:23 - Cal You know Right that work life balance. And I hate to use the word balance because it's never in balance. But that ebb and flow of work life and home life should be there so that it's not a burden all the time. 0:50:37 - Eileen Yeah. 0:50:38 - Cal As we look towards the future. Where do you see Ramstead Ranch going? Are there some any changes you all want to do? Is there anything on the horizon? You think that's what we should be, or where we should be? 0:50:54 - Eileen Well, I would say that we're in a good place as far as our enterprise mix, that we're grazing. We do have a need to bring more species back to the land and graze more. Since we have started partnering, we miss having the chicken schmear on a fertilizer on the ground. 0:51:17 - Cal Oh yeah. 0:51:19 - Eileen So there's some of that that's like, hey, because we've improved the quality of our pastures, where we you know that still needs help, still needs improvement and get some more grazers and more hoof action on on the land. And that doesn't necessarily have to be for the, for the end result of of having it be, you know, a meat product in the end, like the. The thing about the thing about building the meat business has been you've got to do it. Quality, you know, if you're selling to customers, you've got to follow up with customer service, you've got to build a team. So we've been really careful to make that successful and a good working business. And it's kind of time to pivot back and maybe start to bring in some more of the regenerative ag piece just for the sole purpose of the land and having that regeneration happen in the areas that it hasn't been easy to do with finishing animals, because, again, if you're finishing beef, you don't want to put them to work in the areas that aren't as rich with quality grass. 0:52:44 - Cal Right. Yeah, you don't want them on rougher ground. That's not quite ready. Yeah, right. 0:52:48 - Eileen Yeah, exactly. So I think that's, you know, maybe like kind of the next generation of the grazing and the animals that we'll have here, do you? 0:52:58 - Cal find you offer a wide variety of products at your store. Do you find your customers are asking for anything you all don't provide at this time? 0:53:08 - Eileen Yes, that's, I think that's always going to be the case too, is you know? Well, I said goat as grazers, but we don't offer goat meat and there's always, you know, like you know, sort of the game hens or the yeah I would say more novelty animals, and so, and it's sometimes it feels a little hard to say no sometimes, but that's just not something that we can realistically offer and don't plan to. 0:53:37 - Cal Oh yeah. 0:53:38 - Eileen Yep Milk is another one, you know. Oh, yes, right, well milk. 0:53:43 - Cal Listeners of the podcast will know I have this ongoing dilemma and I feel like I tell everyone this. But you know I'm dying to have a milk cow or a few milk goats, but then I grew up on a dairy, so I know that is. That's scheduling me quite busy for quite a while. 0:53:58 - Eileen So I'm not quite there yet, but at the same time for quite a while. So I'm not quite there yet, but at the same time, yeah, and I think it's just as much about hey, when customers find you and they're doing what you're doing, the work that they love, it's like, hey, what else is it? Can I you know? 0:54:12 - Cal can I? 0:54:12 - Eileen get, and so yeah no there's always, there's always one more thing and it's like yeah we know we don't offer that. 0:54:25 - Cal Well, it's kind of like juggling. You know you juggle, you juggle three balls. 0:54:28 - Eileen What does the? 0:54:28 - Cal audience want? They want you to add a fourth ball, a flaming one, yeah, and you start doing four balls. Then what does the audience want? They want you to add another one. So you've got to know yourself and not get yourself into a problem there. 0:54:39 - Eileen Yeah, that's a really good analogy, and not get yourself into a problem there. Yeah, that's a really good analogy, eileen. 0:54:44 - Cal It is time for us to move on to our famous four questions, sponsored by Ken Cove Farm Fence. Ken Cove Farm Fence is a proud supporter of the Grazing Grass Podcast and Grazers Everywhere At Ken Cove Farm Fence. They believe there's true value within the community of grazers and land stewards. The results that follow, proper management and monitoring, can change the very world around us. That's why Ken Cove is dedicated to providing an ever-expanding line of grazing products to make your chores easier and your land more abundant. Whether you're growing your own food on the homestead or grazing on thousands of acres, ken Cove has everything you need to do it well, from reels to tumblewheels, poly twine to electric nets, water valves to water troughs, you'll find what you're looking for at Ken Cove. They carry brands like Speedrite, o'briens, kiwi-tec, strainrite, jobe and more. Ken Cove is proud to be part of your regenerative journey. Call them today or visit KenCovecom, and be sure to follow them on social media and subscribe to the Ken Cove YouTube channel at Ken Cove Farm Fence for helpful how-to videos and new product releases. There's same four questions we ask of all of our guests. Yep, and our first question what is your favorite grazing grass related book or resource? 0:56:08 - Eileen Yeah, it is. So I love the book the Hidden Half of Nature. That's by David Montgomery and his wife Bickley Bickley, ann Bickley, and it's a really great read it's it's. I love it because it is like the whole story of the health of the soil, the grazing of the animals and how they're especially ruminants are adapted to eat grass, and how we transition away from that with our industrial agriculture and and what impact that has had on our food and therefore our bodies. And so it is magical. It's a great book. 0:56:48 - Cal Oh, very interesting. I have not heard of that book, so I will have to look it up. 0:56:53 - Eileen They together have a series. I think they call it the Dirt Trilogy. I think that's what kind of they love. But there's another book they wrote called Dirt, and then another one that is, I think, what your Food Ate is the other title. 0:57:06 - Cal Oh, okay, yeah, oh interesting, they're all awesome books, yeah, yeah. I'll have to look those up. So thank you for that resource. 0:57:14 - Eileen I'm always excited. 0:57:16 - Cal I'm always excited just to hear what people find that's been beneficial to their journey. Yeah, what people find that's been beneficial to their journey, yeah, yeah. In a selfish way, I'm always excited when there's a new book that I haven't heard of. For sure Now if you look behind me, I have a few books here and, as I was talking to Farmer Angus the other day, I haven't read them all yet, so I have plenty of reading to do. 0:57:36 - Eileen Oh, it's never ending, which is great, right. 0:57:39 - Cal Yeah, yeah, I did see a meme earlier that I really liked. It shows two guys standing against a cement block fence and one guy can't see over it and the other guy can see over it only because he's standing on all the books he's read. 0:57:59 - Eileen Oh, that's good. 0:58:02 - Cal I really like that In fact I don't think I saved it to my phone. I kind of wish I would have, because I kind of like that analogy there. You know you're standing on that knowledge. You can gain so much from reading. 0:58:12 - Eileen So much, yeah, that's great. 0:58:15 - Cal For our second question what is your favorite tool? 0:58:18 - Eileen for the farm. Okay, I had to think long and hard about this one, and it's actually. This may be cheating, but it's actually. It's called the trucker's hitch, and it's not a tool, it's a knot that you can make with a rope. Oh, okay. Yeah, and it's like I think I was, when we have interns or new employees that are out in the production division of outdoors at the ranch. It's not I like to teach them because it's the best way it's. Basically it creates a pulley so that you can tie things down tightly or lift things that are heavy, and or if you're headed to a farmer's market and you brought ropes instead of ratchet straps, it's basically like a homemade ratchet strap. Yeah. 0:58:59 - Cal Well, okay, two for two, because I do not know how to tie a trucker's hitch, so I am going to have to look that up as well. 0:59:07 - Eileen Yeah, it's, it really is, it's, it's, it's just like that. It's a ratchet strap in your brain as low. As long as you have a rope you can make a trucker's hitch. Oh yeah, yeah, very good. Yeah, and I don't know that everybody calls it. That's how I learned the name of it. It's basically a slip knot on one side and you loop through and make a pulley so that you can. Oh, okay, yeah, so you've got a mechanical advantage, yeah. 0:59:27 - Cal No, very good, yeah, and I will have to say I believe that's the first time we've used some kind of knot as our favorite tool. 0:59:35 - Eileen Nice, yeah, yeah, there you go. Yeah, all my other ones were kind of dumb. 0:59:42 - Cal It's never dumb if it's useful for you. 0:59:44 - Eileen Yeah, that's true, that's a good point. 0:59:47 - Cal Our third question, Eileen, is what would you tell someone just getting started? 0:59:54 - Eileen Yeah, keep asking why, just keep asking why. There's a lot of it. There's just so much advice and it's like there's good advice and there's bad advice and they can sound the exact same coming out of someone's mouth. Right? It's really understanding where the person's coming from and the reason for what they're saying or what they're telling you, and you just really have to keep evaluating your sources so that you know. You know so much about learning and education and information is about come from, and so the only way you're going to get to that is to be like a little kid, keep the curiosity high and keep asking why yeah. 1:00:46 - Cal You know, eileen, as I looked over your website and as we've had this conversation, I've already jotted down a title to the episode. But now I'm questioning that because I'm thinking I really like that. Keep asking why. That's really good advice, I think. 1:01:05 - Eileen Yeah, and it kind of goes to saying, like you know, there's we talk a lot about, like what works in your zip code, and especially with regenerative grazing, because it's really it's really the principles, it's not the methods. 1:01:18 - Cal If you can learn. 1:01:18 - Eileen If you can learn the principles, you can apply them in those different zip codes. But if you ask someone their methods, they're going to give you a specific answer. This is here's what. 1:01:26 - Cal I do. 1:01:27 - Eileen Here's what you should do. Maybe they say here's what you should do and don't do that. It'll never work. Well, if you ask why, it probably has something to do with that zip code and there's probably a very good reason that they're giving you that advice, but it with that zip code and there's probably a very good reason that they're giving you that advice, but it may be a completely different. 1:01:50 - Cal it may need to be a completely different answer in a different zip code. Right, that could be completely valid in their context. 1:01:52 - Eileen Yeah, they're not wrong, they're right, it's not going to work in your context? 1:01:55 - Cal Yeah, exactly yeah. And lastly, eileen, where can others find out more about you? 1:02:01 - Eileen Yeah, so we're online at ramsteadranchcom. That's our website and if you're on any of the kind of major social media platforms, it's where Ramstead Ranch. So if it's Facebook or Instagram or YouTube, that kind of thing. 1:02:16 - Cal Excellent job on coming up with a name that's going to be unique enough that it's going to be available everywhere. 1:02:23 - Eileen Yeah, no, kidding, yeah, and it's not a last name, it's just a word we made up. It was like homestead, but especially with our love of the sheep, it was Ram's. 1:02:31 - Cal Oh yeah. 1:02:32 - Eileen Now the place of the ram. 1:02:33 - Cal So yeah, Well, very good, eileen, really appreciate you coming on and sharing with us today. 1:02:40 - Eileen Yeah Well, appreciate you coming on and sharing with us today. Yeah Well, thank you. Thank you for having me and I really appreciate what you're doing for the regenerative agriculture community and for grazers out there and new and experienced, so thank you Well, thank you. 1:02:53 - Cal Appreciate that. I really hope you enjoyed today's conversation. I know I did. Thank you for listening and if you found something useful, please share it. Share it on your social media. Tell your friends, get the word out about the podcast. Helps us grow. If you happen to be a grass farmer and you'd like to share about your journey, go to grazinggrasscom and click on Be Our Guest. Fill out the form and I'll be in touch. We appreciate your support by sharing our episodes and telling your friends about it. You can also support our show by buying our merch. We get a little bit back from that. Another way to support the show is by becoming a Grazing Grass Insider. Grazing Grass Insiders enjoy bonus content, monthly Zooms and discounts. You can visit the website, grazinggrasscom, click on support and they'll have the links there. Also, if you haven't left us a review, please do. It really helps us, as people are searching for podcasts and I was just checking them and we do not have very many reviews for 2024. So if you haven't left us a review, please do. Until next time, keep on grazing grass. Transcribed by https://podium.page