e134. Starting at Ground Zero with Anthony Horvath

[00:00:00] Welcome to the Grazing Grass Podcast, Episode 134. Be economical. If you came in even if you

[00:00:09] had $50,000 to dump on a startup, don't blow it. You're listening to the Grazing Grass

[00:00:16] Podcast sharing information and stories of grass-based livestock production and utilizing

[00:00:22] Regenerative Practices. I'm your host, Cal Hardage.

[00:00:27] You're growing more than grass. You're growing a healthier ecosystem to help your cattle thrive

[00:00:34] in their environment. You're growing your livelihood by increasing your carrying capacity and reducing

[00:00:41] your operating cost. You're growing stronger communities and a legacy to last generations.

[00:00:49] The grazing management decisions you make today impact everything from the soil beneath your feet to the community all around you.

[00:00:59] That's why the Noble Research Institute created their Essentials of Regenerative Grazing Course

[00:01:05] to teach ranchers like you easy-to-follow techniques to quickly assess your forage production and infrastructure capacity

[00:01:15] in order to begin grazing more efficiently. Together they can help you grow not only a healthier operation

[00:01:24] but a legacy that lasts. Learn more on their website at noble.org.gracing.

[00:01:33] It's n-o-b-l-e dot org Ford slash grazing. On today's show we have Anthony Horbaugh from Michigan on to share about his farm and what he's doing.

[00:01:48] We talk about starting at ground zero and building slowly. Anthony and his wife both work full time off the farm

[00:01:56] and the farm is fairly small but getting started good. We talk about his approach. We talk about him getting started

[00:02:05] and utilizing bailing hay as a way to get started and expand what he's able to do.

[00:02:12] And we talk about difficulties being able to graze more land there.

[00:02:17] It's a good episode, a little bit different perspective. Someone working full time off the farm

[00:02:24] whereas the last few episodes we had some larger operations on. So really excited to offer a different perspective today

[00:02:31] and I really appreciate Anthony coming on and sharing.

[00:02:36] For 10 seconds about my farm, a last week mention Kevin had started for my dad's herd

[00:02:43] and we jumped off to a great start with four calves. And then they're just trickling in now

[00:02:49] so I think we're up to eight calves and when we have four the first day we think oh boy

[00:02:54] we're going to have a slew but no just one at a time. So it's going slow right now but should pick up.

[00:03:02] Ten seconds about the podcast. If you haven't left us a review we always appreciate reviews

[00:03:08] and as one of my favorite podcasts says we love five star reviews and positive comments.

[00:03:14] To be honest I do. Yeah let's share a review. This one says great podcast and great show for grazers.

[00:03:22] I am in the southeast U.S. but can use the ideas for my grazing purposes here.

[00:03:29] Thank you J.Skin2610 we appreciate you leaving a review for us and they do highlight an issue

[00:03:37] we've had this summer I feel like we've had more northern grazers, more Canadian grazers on

[00:03:45] and we haven't had too many from the southeast or too many other places so we need to work on that.

[00:03:51] If you're from the southeast want to share in fact if you're from anywhere in the world

[00:03:55] and you want to share about your operation go to grazinggrass.com and click on be our guest

[00:04:01] and fill out that form I will get it and I'll be in. Again J.Skin thank you for leaving us that review

[00:04:10] and let's talk to Anthony. Anthony we want to welcome you to the grazinggrass podcast

[00:04:15] we're excited you're here today. Thanks for having me Cal. Anthony to get started can you tell us a little bit

[00:04:22] about yourself in your operation? So our operation is pretty limited on our home front

[00:04:31] we're operating on less than 10 acres that includes the neighbor's acre and a half next door.

[00:04:38] Oh yes. We have seven cattle two of them are calves three are feeders that all be finished out here

[00:04:47] in the next two months and we plan to have them finished out by time grass goes dormant.

[00:04:55] Oh yes. Being in southwest Michigan could be September or it could be February.

[00:05:02] The last couple years last year I had grass until probably January. Oh yes.

[00:05:09] Sometimes we'll get a snow in October sometimes we don't have any snow until January or February at times.

[00:05:16] Oh yeah. We're pretty close to Lake Michigan. Oh it's very hit or miss on our weather.

[00:05:24] Now being close to the Great Lakes up there and myself being in Oklahoma I know very little about it

[00:05:31] but I know occasionally on the national maps they'll say lake effect snow do you get hit with lake effect snow?

[00:05:39] Oh that's the thing about lake effect. And see they're hit or miss. Oh yeah.

[00:05:43] We are in the area that we get hit or we don't.

[00:05:50] They're being where I'm the Indiana Michigan state line close to Lake Michigan.

[00:05:56] So if the wind comes directly out of the west we might get hit with the lake effect.

[00:06:03] Oh yes. If it comes lightly out of the south we might miss it because it doesn't come across the lake.

[00:06:10] Now if it comes out of the northwest then we can expect to see a snow overnight.

[00:06:15] Oh wow interesting. I'm just a few miles from Oolaga Lake.

[00:06:21] I'm sure you haven't heard of it but I never have to worry about lake effect snow.

[00:06:27] Yeah so like if we were in Outer North like Grand Rapids Michigan. Yes.

[00:06:32] They're probably more consistent whether they get it or not because they can't avoid the lake.

[00:06:39] Oh yeah. The wind streams and whatnot coming across.

[00:06:42] Interesting. So Anthony we're on here ag podcast why did you decide to get into ag?

[00:06:53] Well if you would have asked me that five years ago I would have told you.

[00:06:59] I would never thought I was doing today what I am. Oh yes.

[00:07:05] Four years ago we started a hay operation just bailing some of our own stuff,

[00:07:12] cut some jobs, rented ground and we had one cow.

[00:07:17] One cow, donkey and we were buying our hay and we had some issues with that.

[00:07:25] Shady people were hard to get a hold of some lesser quality stuff.

[00:07:34] People slide stuff in and we happened to get a bad bail of hay which we were buying round bales.

[00:07:41] Oh yeah.

[00:07:42] And our donkey became sick.

[00:07:44] Oh no.

[00:07:46] And we didn't lose them at least not at that point and I thought I'm tired of chasing hay around

[00:07:54] and maybe I just start making my own.

[00:07:57] So we just had one feeder cow for the house and maybe saw a little bit of extra some friends or what not.

[00:08:04] And then at that point we decided we would start buying hay equipment in probably March of 2020

[00:08:16] and we did a few custom jobs mostly on split and it started rolling from there.

[00:08:25] Now it's me, I want to stop you for just a second.

[00:08:28] Okay.

[00:08:28] If you've listened to the podcast very long, one of my happiest days in my life was when we sold the hay equipment.

[00:08:37] Now when I say that but you can make my good day go bad by me having to work on some equipment.

[00:08:44] It's not where I fall but you have a hidden advantage with the equipment.

[00:08:49] Yes.

[00:08:49] So by trade I am a diesel technician with ag as a secondary in my education.

[00:08:58] Oh yeah.

[00:08:59] And I like wrenching on stuff.

[00:09:01] I like being able to diagnose and find the problem and fix things.

[00:09:06] So when I came to the hay equipment we just bought the cheapest that we could afford and started rebuilding from there.

[00:09:13] Well I've gotten to a point where I know my equipment well enough and I know that when hay is not growing I should probably work on it.

[00:09:26] Oh yeah.

[00:09:27] I believe too many people run into issues where once hay season is done they're done until next hay season

[00:09:35] and then they start going and then they don't have time to make some maintenance or minor repairs that could be more catastrophic.

[00:09:44] Oh yeah.

[00:09:45] I'm raising my hand Anthony because when we hayed we bailed hay.

[00:09:50] We did it out in Estethe because of the dairy we needed so much hay for it.

[00:09:55] And when that hay season ended we parked the equipment and we looked at it the following spring and in a panic started fixing stuff.

[00:10:06] Now we hire someone to come bail hay for us now.

[00:10:10] Yeah.

[00:10:11] He's actually a second cousin but he when he finishes hay season his winner is going through fixing working on all his tractors and stuff.

[00:10:21] That's what he enjoys doing and so that's his plan.

[00:10:25] And he I'm assuming he's done like you.

[00:10:28] He's bought some equipment and worked on it and got it working for him because he'll pull in with tons of equipment and he may come over here with three mowers or he may be down one.

[00:10:39] He's like well yeah one messed up I'll get it in winter and fix it.

[00:10:43] So he's in great shape on equipment but he spends winter working on all that equipment so you bring up a great point that I have to say we were not good about.

[00:10:53] Yeah.

[00:10:54] And during college I did work at a dairy barn.

[00:10:57] Oh yes.

[00:10:58] Even at that point I would have never thought I was going to start buying animals and hay equipment and it was just a college job and that was that.

[00:11:10] Did you were you raised around animals.

[00:11:13] So my background has zero animals in the history to the point we were lucky to have a dog growing up.

[00:11:24] So I did what nothing to do with the animals.

[00:11:27] Oh yes but yet when you went to college you decided to go get a job on a dairy.

[00:11:33] So the school I went to which was University of Northwestern Ohio down in Lima they had like job postings that people in the community would say hey you got some college kids I have a job that would work around their schedule or whatnot.

[00:11:47] Oh yeah.

[00:11:47] I was just like I'll check this out and they were pretty flexible.

[00:11:53] We only went to school Monday Tuesday Wednesday and Thursday.

[00:11:56] Oh yeah.

[00:11:57] And then we had Friday and the weekend off and the dairy was like well we were milking 80 to 100 head.

[00:12:08] And he really just needed some relief.

[00:12:11] Oh yeah.

[00:12:12] So to have somebody there to help milk and he could pick up on other things and go out and get other things rolling while somebody was managing the parlor bringing cows in and out what not.

[00:12:23] So having helped for Friday's week was good for him and then he had his weekends and one thing I never got roped into was helping with hay.

[00:12:32] So yes that's one thing I've thought about is like he'd never asked me to come stack wagons nothing but.

[00:12:40] And then here you are buying hay and equipment and deciding you're going to your own.

[00:12:46] Yeah.

[00:12:46] Yep.

[00:12:48] So why did you mention a little bit you'd got some hay and your don't get gotten sick was there any other reason you thought hey let's.

[00:12:57] Hey yeah ironically thought hey let's go get the equipment to make hay.

[00:13:04] It was just that we had our own and there's not enough hay makers in our area.

[00:13:12] Oh yeah.

[00:13:13] So when I started talking about buying some hay equipment I had a buddy that was like hey I know some people are looking for somebody to cut and bail.

[00:13:23] I can hook you up with them whatever.

[00:13:24] Yeah.

[00:13:26] And I found out some of some of those were just on off what not.

[00:13:32] Yes.

[00:13:32] Yeah because he had his own hay equipment but didn't want to do it for him.

[00:13:38] So what from there we just started picking up ground and I think I got up to 30 or 40 acres my first year.

[00:13:46] Oh yeah.

[00:13:48] And then the second year we started looking for a lot more but at that point we started buying more animals because we're like we have the hey we might as well do some more animals.

[00:14:02] And we at that point we had processed our cow and people are like hey we'll buy some from you like we want to buy local.

[00:14:10] So we got rolling with maybe we'll buy a two to butcher out and then we got the hay then we got more cows and we got more hay and this year and last season first cutting I've done around 100 acres.

[00:14:27] Oh yeah.

[00:14:27] And that kind of says a lot for our area.

[00:14:31] We don't have big hay fields.

[00:14:33] Oh yes.

[00:14:34] I would say a big hay job in our area.

[00:14:39] My biggest job is 15 acres.

[00:14:42] Oh yeah so small acreage there.

[00:14:44] Yeah.

[00:14:45] Yeah there are some bigger hayfields mostly like a family farm or something might have like a 30 acre field or something.

[00:14:51] Oh yeah.

[00:14:52] But not a lot of it.

[00:14:54] Everybody just easier go to row crop.

[00:14:58] A lot of people that are running out they don't want people there three four times a year.

[00:15:02] They get the right at beginning of the year somebody comes with plant something then they harvest it and oh yeah I find some people find that easier and a simpler process.

[00:15:16] Now in addition to the farm and your hay you know are you working off the farm as well.

[00:15:22] I am still working full time.

[00:15:25] We strive for 40 hours.

[00:15:27] Oh yeah.

[00:15:28] My company owner would greatly complain that I don't quite get 40 hours every week.

[00:15:34] So.

[00:15:35] Well just so when you say 100 acres even though you're doing a smaller acre each or someone who's belling hay in my area they'd say that's not that's hardly a drop in the bucket.

[00:15:46] But right.

[00:15:47] But you're doing a full time job in addition to belling this hay and then so I think context is important there.

[00:15:55] Yes.

[00:15:56] Yes.

[00:15:57] Because belling hay is not a quick and easy dollar.

[00:16:01] Right.

[00:16:03] So I saved my vacation time.

[00:16:06] Oh yes.

[00:16:07] And the way it goes I've rewrote company policy three times and four and a half years I've been there.

[00:16:15] So I would save my vacation time and when it came to making hay I would take off at lunch put a half day vacation in.

[00:16:25] Oh yeah.

[00:16:26] You can't do anything first thing in the morning unless you're moving equipment.

[00:16:30] And we did that for about two years then we had a sit down meeting at work and they said we're no longer doing half days.

[00:16:37] We can no longer take half half vacation days it's got to be a full day.

[00:16:43] And I'm like well I disadvantage to you because when I got to make hay I got to make hay.

[00:16:49] Yeah.

[00:16:49] So I more so miss out the hours on the week then push the hay off because Southwest Michigan you got a window to do hay you got to make it.

[00:17:00] Oh yeah.

[00:17:01] You missed your window you could be pushed back a month easy and we had that this year our first cutting when.

[00:17:11] I would say maybe a couple weeks behind but between first and second cutting we got pushed back an extra month.

[00:17:20] Oh yeah.

[00:17:21] Just because we only had like two or three dry days in a row and humidity rolls in you got to hold off.

[00:17:29] Oh yeah.

[00:17:30] I assume it's very similar to trying to bail in May or mid May here.

[00:17:35] It's really tough to get anything wrapped up the humidity getting enough warm days.

[00:17:40] And a sunlight together.

[00:17:43] Now you hit early to mid June that all changes for us but you're in a little bit different environment.

[00:17:49] Yeah.

[00:17:50] So if we get into June I would say first cutting due to the volume can be the hardest one to dry.

[00:17:58] Oh yeah.

[00:17:59] But if we get into June doing first cutting we could almost turn it in a day.

[00:18:05] Oh yeah.

[00:18:05] Just because the sun the breeze I've made a dry hay and I've bailed at 36 hours and it was too dry.

[00:18:15] Oh yeah.

[00:18:16] Round baler it was just blowing apart but also when you get into June you're also already have a half dead crop and.

[00:18:25] Yeah matured out.

[00:18:27] 30 half dry sticking up.

[00:18:29] Now Anthony you mentioned that you start bailing this hay and you had more hay so you will bought more animals.

[00:18:35] Have you thought about grazing those hay pastures you have?

[00:18:40] Well that is one of my biggest challenges in the first two years I was making hay I would go out to a field.

[00:18:50] I'm like man this wasn't worth my time.

[00:18:53] Oh yeah.

[00:18:54] I usually make 4 by 5 round bales post cutting their 8 to 900 pounds second cutting there easily a thousand pounds.

[00:19:06] When you go out and do a 10 or 15 acre field on second cutting and you only bring home 10 bales.

[00:19:15] You look at your cost and go wow I'd.

[00:19:19] Oh yeah.

[00:19:19] My field is gone.

[00:19:20] Yeah.

[00:19:21] So that's why I came across the whole regenerative ag approach on things and I really try to get some of my landowners on for grazing.

[00:19:36] And I have had zero success other than my next door neighbor with acre and a half.

[00:19:43] Oh yes.

[00:19:46] They don't like the idea of fences.

[00:19:50] Oh yeah.

[00:19:51] And I'm talking fence down to the simplest form of my group is good enough.

[00:19:58] Obviously I have a small group seven cattle half a dozen sheep in Katahdin hair sheep three of them are lambs.

[00:20:08] They're bonded.

[00:20:10] I have no problems with sheep getting out.

[00:20:13] Oh yeah.

[00:20:14] I can run the whole group on two strands of poly braid with just a T post in the corner if I'm doing long runs they do 300 feet.

[00:20:26] I like to have T posts in the corner otherwise I can just get away with the step in post but you even that little bit of fence they still just don't like the idea.

[00:20:39] And I've got a couple I keep trying to work on because of course they're my my weakest output field.

[00:20:47] Oh yeah.

[00:20:48] And just can't get them onto the idea.

[00:20:52] We are on Zillow every day.

[00:20:59] We need to grow.

[00:21:00] We're at that point where we would like to find 30 or 40 acres at least.

[00:21:08] Oh yeah.

[00:21:08] Got some things in the works nothing substantial but we're trying with our group.

[00:21:18] Our 10 acre home property is probably about seven seven of its forested.

[00:21:25] Oh OK.

[00:21:26] So we have been working for the last couple of years to do more of a Silvo pasture approach.

[00:21:34] Oh yeah.

[00:21:35] We have about two two and a half acres at the front of our property that just wide open pastures from the past.

[00:21:44] And then we have a valley that goes through the property.

[00:21:48] It's not that big but it's a significant cut in the ground.

[00:21:52] And through that we've started eliminating.

[00:21:55] We have a lot of wild cherry in our area.

[00:21:58] Oh yeah.

[00:21:59] Which I don't know how much you've dealt with those or know about the health side effects of blows.

[00:22:06] But some people say they'll let their cows eat them green but the issue is when a tree branch breaks off and you get it wilting

[00:22:15] that it'll kill a cow within a few hours.

[00:22:18] Oh yes.

[00:22:19] My neighbor across the road has a bunch of black Angus in spring time.

[00:22:24] They might run a little short on hay or whatnot but you start getting that green up and the cows start reaching over the fence.

[00:22:31] It's not the first time they grab the branch but it's the second or third time they grab the branch that it started creating the I believe it cyanide when a cherry tree starts to will.

[00:22:42] And that's what kills them.

[00:22:43] Oh yeah.

[00:22:44] That's an interesting issue to have.

[00:22:46] I don't know of having any wild cherries around here.

[00:22:50] Yeah.

[00:22:51] I had to deal with it.

[00:22:52] They're big in our area.

[00:22:54] Black cherry or wild cherry they get a little real little cherry fruit on it.

[00:22:59] Oh yeah.

[00:23:01] We're spending around pretty good.

[00:23:04] I've my wife has talked about eliminating them off her property but that would probably be 70% of our trees.

[00:23:11] Oh yes.

[00:23:12] So we come back keep them out of their areas.

[00:23:15] So our donkey that got sick a couple years ago he recovered we had him.

[00:23:20] He actually passed away this summer.

[00:23:24] We don't know if it's still side effects because what what do you get sick from a few years ago was a liver infection.

[00:23:30] Oh okay.

[00:23:31] And our vet said something bad in the hay.

[00:23:34] Yeah.

[00:23:35] You know could be many issues that could cause it but most likely something bad in a moldy spot bed plant something.

[00:23:43] He passed away this summer but he was our biggest concern out in the woods because he always like cribbing on the cherry trees.

[00:23:52] Oh yeah.

[00:23:53] I could never seem to cause them a problem but he was always the one that would do it so we'd rope them off and just a wrap of

[00:24:00] I'll break around them you know just two or three teeth or step in post and they kept them off.

[00:24:07] Oh yeah.

[00:24:08] Yeah.

[00:24:08] So the rest of my group doesn't really bother them.

[00:24:12] So we're a little easier rotating them around but yeah.

[00:24:17] So Anthony you were talking about your animals how are you doing crazy management with your animals because you're working with very small acreage for them.

[00:24:27] We saw our great grazing management is very flexible which is which is good.

[00:24:35] Crazy management should be flexible.

[00:24:37] Yeah so right now my one pasture has came up very strong in what some people call goose grass or wire grass.

[00:24:46] Oh okay.

[00:24:48] And I have split my group up to offer the better forage to my feeders that are I have three that are three cattle that are

[00:24:58] finishing out in the next two months and then I have three lambs I'm carrying over until early spring.

[00:25:05] They'll be about 10 months for butcher just in time for the holidays.

[00:25:11] Oh yes.

[00:25:12] So I'm neglecting my brood they are in that pasture with the goose grass and supplemented with hay.

[00:25:23] Unfortunately they're not eating as much of a day the hay as I'd like because I use a cradle style bale feeder.

[00:25:31] Oh okay.

[00:25:32] And it works really good for bale grazing.

[00:25:38] So that pasture will probably end up getting tilled and reseeded just because it's gone through some leveling with the removal of tree stomps and what not.

[00:25:51] And then I'm running my feeder group ahead and right now they're on my neighbor's pasture next door.

[00:25:58] I section that down quarter quarter a half acre at a time and rotate them around and then once they've picked through the good stuff

[00:26:09] I have a spot down in the valley that I mowed earlier this summer because we have a weed called smart weed.

[00:26:19] Okay I'm not familiar with it.

[00:26:21] It just grows ridiculously well in wooded areas.

[00:26:28] Oh okay.

[00:26:29] It's a green plant it might get knee high but gets these real little pinkish red dots on it that are the seeds and deer will browse on it a little bit but nothing really likes it.

[00:26:43] So I did mow that out and got the grass to perk back up and I've never seen a grass down there but through mowing it had started to come through.

[00:26:54] And this will be our first time grazing that as we've gotten rid of some of the cherry trees and whatnot.

[00:27:02] So we're flexible in terms of that.

[00:27:05] Yeah let's go a little bit longer on this or let's fence off an area over there.

[00:27:10] I don't mow grass.

[00:27:13] The only grass I mow is the ditch along the road between the pavement and the fence and right next to the driveway.

[00:27:22] That's the term of flexibility where I run poly rope up to one corner of the house and then it comes off the other corner to the pasture.

[00:27:33] And Anthony I'm laughing because my dad makes fun of me earlier this summer my nephew mows my parents yard.

[00:27:41] He mows his mom's yard and his yard and then usually we all share a lawn mower so he usually just drops it off down here where I have it stored in the barn.

[00:27:51] And he was like hey I'm getting that mower he says you want me to mow yours.

[00:27:55] I'm like oh no I don't want you to mow it.

[00:27:57] I'm putting sheep in there.

[00:28:00] Yeah so.

[00:28:01] So I'm that crazy person too who my wife doesn't mind that I graze as much as I can with animals.

[00:28:08] Yep so when I can get three or four days of feed off of the yard around the house and our kids are small enough that they don't need a lot of yards.

[00:28:20] Oh yeah.

[00:28:22] So and honestly our property we have a lot of clay.

[00:28:28] Oh yes.

[00:28:29] We're either sand or clay.

[00:28:31] And neither are great.

[00:28:35] So right now in Michigan we had some rain Thursday night.

[00:28:41] There was less than a quarter inch of rain.

[00:28:46] All trees that rained before that was probably less than a quarter inch three weeks before.

[00:28:54] So I were getting into a drought.

[00:28:56] Oh yes.

[00:28:57] And I haven't even been able to feed my side yard.

[00:29:01] Oh yeah.

[00:29:03] Because we have the clay there's a little organic matter that the moisture just doesn't hold.

[00:29:12] So actually the pasture closest to our side yard which is the one I would branch up to the side yard to feed off of.

[00:29:20] I ran our group on brown bale for probably three weeks a month in that pasture.

[00:29:31] I did some round bale but I found out that the bale makes a lot more waste in a brown bale feeder.

[00:29:38] Oh yes.

[00:29:39] So bale grazing that side yard with square bale did really great.

[00:29:45] So that little bit of rain we got yesterday or Thursday night held a lot more moisture than if I would have let them eat it clean or round bale than the feeder.

[00:29:55] Because when I do hay if I have like tree rows that don't get dry I bale them and then they just come home and they go out to the cows.

[00:30:06] And instead of okay they'll hold up okay they might make a little mold.

[00:30:11] I just I set them in a spot and I feed them out and I don't have to worry about giving them to the customer and getting a bad reputation.

[00:30:19] They just feed my herd instead of a round bale.

[00:30:22] Oh yeah.

[00:30:23] It does them pretty good especially when you're in second or third cutting with a good amount of alfalfa in there.

[00:30:30] Oh yeah.

[00:30:31] But yeah so that bale grazing has been a it's been bittersweet.

[00:30:38] It's helped our ground like that because what I'll actually do is all that will get tilled in.

[00:30:45] I know a lot of people aren't fana rototilling but being the way our property was before there were a lot of tree stumps and whatnot that got removed.

[00:30:55] So we have a bunch of divots and voids and oh yes crest in the ground that are if you are mowing the grass it's terrible but it's also terrible driving a tractor across if you're moving bale or something.

[00:31:09] So we're using the rototiller to level things out and make it.

[00:31:14] Oh okay.

[00:31:15] Easier on the animals.

[00:31:16] They're not tripping over ridges in the ground and yeah hot holes from a tree stump.

[00:31:22] I think with that when we talk about Regenti bag and we talk about not disturbing the soil, not using chemicals, not using fertilizer, rotating our animals.

[00:31:33] That's all a goal for us.

[00:31:35] I think it's a goal for you.

[00:31:36] It's a goal for me.

[00:31:37] But to get there sometimes we have to use some of those tools that's in our toolbox such as rototilling that so you're leveling some areas out.

[00:31:48] And there's different ways to do it but that's the tool you have to do it.

[00:31:52] So we be conscious of what our context is and we can look at down the road this is where we want to be.

[00:32:01] Just because we're not there today does not mean it's bad.

[00:32:04] It just means it's going to slow our progress a little bit maybe if we're doing some things that's not best for the soil but we know where we're going.

[00:32:13] So it's a tool for you to use.

[00:32:16] Yeah and as much as I don't like the idea of it, I'm not hard set in any certain way.

[00:32:22] I understand.

[00:32:23] I've seen where tillage does kill the soil.

[00:32:27] That's part of the reason why our ground is so terrible around us.

[00:32:32] Everybody tells we still have farmers that go out, a local small town farmer, they plow twice a year.

[00:32:38] They dis and then they got a fertilizer bill that's just crazy.

[00:32:45] A farm next door I've been trying to rent the land owner old timer hasn't farmed and I don't know if he's ever farmed it or just always been like this.

[00:32:53] He doesn't want to rent it out but he thinks the farmer is doing such a great job because he put so much fertilizer down.

[00:32:59] Oh yeah.

[00:33:00] Yeah that's building the soil and I'm like no but sometimes you can't teach an old dog new trick.

[00:33:09] You mentioned earlier you've talked to some of these landowners about grazing animals and they're not quite there yet.

[00:33:16] I think the most important thing there is relationships and those don't happen overnight.

[00:33:24] Depending on the person it may take even longer or a lot longer.

[00:33:30] So I think even with your neighbor like that it's just about building that relationship and continuing down that road till you get that relationship and maybe at some point you're able to do that.

[00:33:41] Yeah that's what we keep working for.

[00:33:43] We should but not shove.

[00:33:45] Right.

[00:33:45] Try to get there.

[00:33:48] That's probably been one of our biggest issues.

[00:33:52] I would say most of the generational farms in our area they're ran by people that are getting to that age to where they've been there for a while.

[00:34:06] So things are set up and comfortable.

[00:34:09] Oh yeah.

[00:34:09] There's no reason to change but for that same reason things are going to have to change because I would say at least two of the three neighboring properties around us are being operated and managed by families that are in their 70s.

[00:34:30] Oh yeah.

[00:34:31] So how long can you really do that?

[00:34:34] Yeah some people lived B90 but others don't make it to 50 so they're just rolling with it until the options have to change.

[00:34:44] Yeah and I think we're seeing that throughout ag that average age is increasing and wondering about the next journey.

[00:34:52] I talk about my animals, my operation and my dad is 76 and he's got his own operation which I provide a fair amount of labor for.

[00:35:03] Now he's got my nephew helping him now which has been really nice in fact we just started fall keving season with his cows and I've tagged zero of them.

[00:35:12] My nephew has tagged them which has been nice.

[00:35:15] And then my grandpa up the road still runs cows now he runs them with my uncle who is 60 so but my grandpa's 98.

[00:35:26] Yeah.

[00:35:26] So yeah that's still people going and doing stuff and we're seeing that age but then the next thought is who's coming up who's going to take their places.

[00:35:37] Yeah and I think that's been one of our limitations is we have this older generation still going but the next generation it really isn't getting a foot in the door.

[00:35:49] You say that and I think that's a, I hate to say an issue that is a concern and I've heard it other places as well and I could apply it here and think my dad ought to take a step back but he enjoys it so I don't know.

[00:36:05] I do get that and I do hear that and I do think it's true in a lot of aspects.

[00:36:10] I don't know what the answer is.

[00:36:12] Yeah.

[00:36:13] It's one of those things.

[00:36:15] Unfortunately, I think it comes down to just being an ultimatum of like we were talking on the hay equipment you just run it until it has to.

[00:36:23] Oh yeah.

[00:36:24] Be instant.

[00:36:25] Yeah.

[00:36:26] I know the one family farm in our area, the old man I'd say is in his late 70s somewhere around that age and even some of the grandsons aren't even getting lead wake in some of the operations and they're just there being able bodies.

[00:36:46] Oh yeah.

[00:36:46] Yeah, that's a tough thing to work through is releasing that control to the next generation and do stuff for them to do more things.

[00:36:58] I talk about my dad and I quite often on the podcast but that's been a struggle for us throughout the years because it's his operation and we're partners on some things but he's got his thing that he is the operator on or the owner.

[00:37:14] He's not so much he would cringe if I say he's not the operator because he's down here doing stuff.

[00:37:20] Yeah.

[00:37:21] I'm doing a ton of stuff and he is given my voice more weight now but it's taken us decades to get here.

[00:37:29] It's a tough dance to go through and I think ranching for profit when they talk about families and working on the farm versus working in the farm.

[00:37:40] I think that could be a tremendous benefit for a lot of those people.

[00:37:45] I say a lot of those people for a lot of us.

[00:37:48] I don't want to it'd be beneficial for any of us I believe.

[00:37:52] Yeah.

[00:37:53] Yeah, I think there's one thing that lacks is just general communication.

[00:37:58] Oh yeah.

[00:38:00] So I got a question on this non ag related house communication at your job.

[00:38:06] Terrible.

[00:38:07] Okay.

[00:38:07] So that's why I'm saying that I worked in education for over two decades and the common complaint is communication.

[00:38:17] The common I think now I'm going to go out on a limb and say most places the issue is communication.

[00:38:24] We're either saying stuff and we're not saying what we truly mean or the communications just not happening and the people who need to know don't know.

[00:38:33] And it's not often because people think, oh, I don't want to tell them.

[00:38:37] They just think, well, they don't need to know that.

[00:38:40] I just won't burden them with that.

[00:38:42] But oftentimes they do need to know.

[00:38:44] So that communication piece.

[00:38:46] I think everyone in the world needs to work on.

[00:38:50] Yeah.

[00:38:51] The chap I work in communication is definitely a big issue.

[00:38:55] It definitely puts a hitch in the day and a few words can go a long way.

[00:39:01] Oh yeah.

[00:39:01] It goes a step further.

[00:39:03] All of our marriages or relationships with other people, communication such a huge factor and would make a big difference.

[00:39:12] My wife and my communication I think is really good at this point.

[00:39:16] It's taken years for us to figure that out and get there.

[00:39:20] And I'm sure in five years we'll look back and say, oh, we really had a lot of growth to do at that point.

[00:39:26] But it's a journey.

[00:39:29] Hey Anthony.

[00:39:29] Rather than continue on this communication, let's talk a little bit about your animals.

[00:39:36] You mentioned you have hair sheep.

[00:39:38] You mainly working with katatang or katatang crosses there.

[00:39:42] I believe they're katatang.

[00:39:44] Oh okay so.

[00:39:45] And their whole they were cheap.

[00:39:48] Yeah well that's an important thing.

[00:39:51] And we'll come back to that in just a moment.

[00:39:54] What kind of cows are you running?

[00:39:56] Cheap cows?

[00:39:57] Well okay Anthony.

[00:39:59] They weren't bought this year so.

[00:40:01] That makes them cheaper doesn't it?

[00:40:03] Well Anthony let's stop right there because both of those answers bring us to the over grazing section sponsored by Redmond.

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[00:41:09] We're going to talk a little bit about we'll just say cheapness right now.

[00:41:14] But that's economical.

[00:41:15] Economical because cheap has that negative connotation.

[00:41:20] It does.

[00:41:21] And we really don't want that because let's talk about economical in your situation.

[00:41:27] Yeah.

[00:41:29] So I would define economical as something that you can afford without taking out a loan.

[00:41:35] It might not be the highest quality, but it's reasonable in the aspect that it's healthy.

[00:41:45] And producing.

[00:41:47] So we're not a big income family.

[00:41:50] We're both working day jobs and wives and school teacher.

[00:41:55] I'm a diesel mechanic.

[00:41:57] Farming was just a side gig for us.

[00:41:59] And when it came down to buying stock livestock, our cow started with winged bottle babies.

[00:42:09] Yes.

[00:42:10] Something we could afford raised they were healthy turned off off the bottle on the grass and grain once we get them we put them on just grass.

[00:42:21] And what they're not I dollar registered Angus here for South Pole because that's just not where we're at in our situation.

[00:42:33] A couple of years ago you could pick up bottle babies off the bottle for four or $500.

[00:42:41] This year you're talking about the dollars on a wiener.

[00:42:47] Yeah, I would guess so as well.

[00:42:49] I haven't priced those but I know bottle calves or that $500 range now it's interesting with bottle calves.

[00:42:57] I saw someone on Facebook and actually had I seen a little bit earlier they had a twin born and the mom wasn't taking it.

[00:43:04] So they're like first person here with $250 gets it.

[00:43:08] I saw it an hour after it was posted and it was gone.

[00:43:11] I would have drove over there courses like 10 minutes from me.

[00:43:14] And got a baby for $250 but I've seen them.

[00:43:19] I've seen them as high as like 600.

[00:43:21] So one thing you mentioned there you're buying winged.

[00:43:25] Yes, winged bottle babies rather than the bottle babies themselves.

[00:43:29] Why are you doing that?

[00:43:31] I don't have experience with bottle babies and working a day job having two kids.

[00:43:38] The time invested to do it right and make sure they're healthy and growing right isn't in our situation right now.

[00:43:45] I think you are exactly point on there with bottle calves.

[00:43:51] They take a lot more time than you think once you get started on them.

[00:43:55] I used to buy bottle calves dairy calves and I tried to buy them when I was working for school.

[00:44:00] I'd buy them during spring break.

[00:44:02] So I had a week off that because you got to check them in my opinion when you're bringing bottle babies in.

[00:44:07] And you're watching and make sure they're doing okay.

[00:44:11] And we always taught them to drink out of a bucket versus a bottle.

[00:44:14] It would take me hours.

[00:44:16] So I wanted that time and once I hit two weeks of age.

[00:44:20] Much smoother but those first two weeks I had to spend a lot of time with them to make sure they were started good.

[00:44:27] And then even at two weeks of age, you still got that twice a day feeding and stuff.

[00:44:32] So I think experience with it and having time to do it is a great reason to buy bottle babies that have just been weaned.

[00:44:40] Yeah, the biggest thing is just being healthy.

[00:44:45] So starting out with our cow and donkey about five years ago.

[00:44:50] The donkey has been our only death on the farm other than chickens.

[00:44:55] The chickens are something gets off they run into something you find one dead.

[00:45:01] It's not even a high mortality rate at that.

[00:45:04] We might find one, one or two a year that just died or whatnot.

[00:45:08] We don't rotate like our laying hens we don't rotate them out when they're two years old or whatnot.

[00:45:14] They're there to disturb the poop and bugs and lay eggs and when they get old.

[00:45:21] But yeah, the donkey's been our only barge livestock death even among the we've probably done close to 50 hugs in the last year and a half.

[00:45:35] And no sickness there.

[00:45:37] Once we get better bottle babies they carry through pretty good.

[00:45:41] I've had a vet in for one cow or one one calf heifer.

[00:45:47] We had no clue what was going on with her at the point the vet came in she was two years old.

[00:45:54] I was getting ready to look at doing some breeding and she was probably 36 inches tall.

[00:46:02] Oh, yes.

[00:46:04] 40 at Mac and I had a vet come in do a wellness check and she said nope everything's healthy or hearts good.

[00:46:12] She's a dwarf.

[00:46:13] Oh.

[00:46:14] And this was out of a registered here for third I bought her in with a group of battle babies from a buddy and oh yes.

[00:46:24] You just thought she was so cute and fuzzy and he was.

[00:46:29] Oh yeah.

[00:46:30] And so we ended up selling her off as just a mini cow.

[00:46:34] And that that's something we wanted to keep around it doesn't serve us much purpose if we can't breed her or eat her so.

[00:46:42] Oh yeah.

[00:46:44] Now you mentioned your hogs there are you bringing those in as feeders.

[00:46:48] Yes, we're buying them in as feeders anywhere from 40 to 90 pounds depending on when we get them.

[00:46:55] I buy those about 10 10 15 minutes away from home.

[00:47:00] We just do a commercial breed we tried some American guinea hog.

[00:47:04] They were okay but they were too much maintenance.

[00:47:07] Oh yeah because you have to limit their diet.

[00:47:10] I had to go out measure out feed twice a day and yes they forage but even restricting their feed they got real fatty.

[00:47:20] Oh yeah just we found them hard to sell.

[00:47:22] We moved to just regular commercial breed feeders whether they're a Durrock or Berkshire or Bluebutt whatever I can get from my local farm about 10 15 months away.

[00:47:36] We find they all do pretty good as long as I don't get too many guilt in the group.

[00:47:41] Yeah we had a group that was split 50 50 with guilt and they were significantly behind.

[00:47:53] Oh yeah why is that butcher.

[00:47:54] I want to say we took them off to the bottles in that group were over 200 hanging where the guilt for around 150 160.

[00:48:04] Oh yeah that was a big difference.

[00:48:07] Same age same letters same feed but you can see the difference and afford a six month raise out.

[00:48:16] We've talked about being economical or frugal and making sure in your livestock purchases how does that apply to the rest of your farm operation.

[00:48:28] We do everything.

[00:48:30] I've scrolling through Facebook market plays specific groups.

[00:48:38] I almost laugh when I ask when I see a post or somebody hiring somebody to put up a cattle fence.

[00:48:48] Oh yeah.

[00:48:49] I couldn't even imagine what it would cost for me to pay somebody to come in and fence in a five acre pasture.

[00:48:58] Like for me that is most places businesses whether it's a fence company a truck shop a plumbing service they're over $100 an hour bill out.

[00:49:12] So I know the time I have into my fencing and I couldn't even fathom the cost of that.

[00:49:20] So I generally work by myself sometimes my dad will come over he's more of a lawn chair supervisor.

[00:49:28] Yeah.

[00:49:30] But we do everything our own except for raising piglet.

[00:49:37] We don't do any farrowing.

[00:49:38] We find it easier to just buy feeders the cost of a sow and knowing how to breed them and keep them going.

[00:49:46] It's in time.

[00:49:48] Yeah.

[00:49:49] I think yeah so when you think about economically you're buying some undervalued animals that come into your system.

[00:49:56] And can appreciate in value not necessarily a short turnaround because when you're buying those wean bottle calves you've got a long turnaround on them.

[00:50:06] Yeah.

[00:50:06] You're able to get in there with low cost and you're using time as a way to lower your costs and then you're using your own labor to do everything.

[00:50:16] Yeah.

[00:50:16] In addition to you and your wife both having full time jobs.

[00:50:20] Yeah.

[00:50:20] Yeah.

[00:50:21] Yeah.

[00:50:22] And most people find it crazy that we have seven cows half dozen she about 14 hogs right now almost two dozen chicken and then two little children and they'll try to get 40 hours a week.

[00:50:39] It's busy.

[00:50:41] Yeah.

[00:50:41] Sure.

[00:50:42] Sure it is.

[00:50:43] Do you is this where you want to be you're enjoying it and doing this kind of on a small scale or would you like to grow enough that eventually you could just do this full time.

[00:51:00] So ideologically we would like to quit my day job.

[00:51:08] But we also don't want to be you.

[00:51:13] One thing I think in it I understand the economical need for people to put out as much as they can.

[00:51:21] But we would like to replace our income and supply to our community.

[00:51:28] Oh yeah.

[00:51:28] We don't want to get to the point to where we're wholesaling just to move stock.

[00:51:34] Oh we want to be able to reach out to our direct community celled farm to table from the consumer maybe some local restaurants but we don't want to.

[00:51:43] I don't think we want to get to the point where we're moving 100 out of cow every year.

[00:51:48] Oh yeah.

[00:51:48] We're doing 5000 chickens.

[00:51:51] It's just something for us to do have our income live on our farm and make a low impact on our community offer what's needed.

[00:52:03] Yeah.

[00:52:04] Excellent.

[00:52:05] Yeah.

[00:52:06] Anthony it is time for us to transition and move to our famous four questions sponsored by Ken co farm fence.

[00:52:13] Ken co farm fence is a proud supporter of the grazing grass podcast and grazers everywhere.

[00:52:19] At Ken co farm fence they believe there's true value within the community of grazers and land stewards.

[00:52:26] The results that follow proper management monitoring can change the very world around us.

[00:52:31] That's why Ken co is dedicated to providing an ever expanding line of grazing products to make your chores easier in your land more abundant.

[00:52:39] Whether you're growing your own food on the homestead or grazing on thousand of acres.

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[00:53:03] Ken cove is proud to be part of your regentive journey.

[00:53:07] Call them today or visit Ken cove.com and be sure to follow them on social media and subscribe to the Ken cove YouTube channel at Ken cove farm fence for helpful how to videos and new product releases.

[00:53:22] They're the same four questions we ask of all of our guests.

[00:53:25] Our first question what is your favorite grazing grass related book or resource.

[00:53:31] So I actually just started a new book. Let me look it up here.

[00:53:36] So with my full time day job, I found audible be very handy.

[00:53:43] Oh yes.

[00:53:44] So this is where I actually came across podcast and when I started looking at in the regenerative ag I started listening to all kinds of podcasts and then probably about six to eight months ago I started listening to audible.

[00:53:59] I came across one I've listened to the what I would call the typical regenerative ag book.

[00:54:05] Okay, Brown's dirt to soil Joe Salton has many of them.

[00:54:09] Oh yeah.

[00:54:10] But I came across this one by Forrest Richard called gaining ground and I am.

[00:54:20] Oh, let's see. I am on chapter 12 of it.

[00:54:26] And I have found it to be a very level headed book.

[00:54:32] I'm not completely through it but it's I believe he's where I'm at on things.

[00:54:36] Oh okay.

[00:54:37] In different aspects is I didn't inherit a farm that was severely broken and debt but I'm starting at ground zero and trying to build this with minimal income and resources.

[00:54:52] And so it's been a good book to work through.

[00:54:56] I don't think anybody's mentioned it before.

[00:54:59] No, I don't think so.

[00:55:01] I'm not familiar with that book.

[00:55:02] So I'm gonna have to excuse me.

[00:55:05] I'm gonna have to look it up.

[00:55:07] Yeah, so if you can see that.

[00:55:10] Oh, okay. Yeah, very good.

[00:55:12] He actually had a Joe Salton experience before Joe Salton was known as he is now.

[00:55:19] Oh yes.

[00:55:20] He's over in that area and oh okay.

[00:55:22] But to one of his early on conferences.

[00:55:25] Yeah.

[00:55:25] Well, I will have to look that up appreciate it.

[00:55:28] I'm always excited to hear something new that I haven't heard of.

[00:55:32] I'm always like how did I not hear of it, but it's always good.

[00:55:35] I came across someone other day and they were, I had asked them something about the podcast and they hadn't heard of the podcast.

[00:55:43] I'm like, I thought I had word out everywhere about the podcast, but obviously not.

[00:55:48] Yeah.

[00:55:49] Our second question Anthony.

[00:55:51] What is your favorite tool for the farm?

[00:55:54] I'm going to be unconventional here and say the these headset iso tunes 2.0 link and I can wear them and still function while I'm operating.

[00:56:10] Hey equipment tractors moving.

[00:56:12] Hey, I don't have to stop.

[00:56:15] I don't have to look at a phone screen.

[00:56:17] I love my poly reels and whatnot.

[00:56:20] They make things a lot easier, but to be a little bit different.

[00:56:24] It's nice to have somebody call me whether it's about me sales or a question on hey equipment or my dad in another field.

[00:56:36] I can just hit a button, answer the phone and the day keeps going.

[00:56:40] I've had other headsets and earbuds that you have stop.

[00:56:46] I've had to go as far as shut the equipment off just so I could have a phone conversation to tell my dad which field to go to next or whatnot.

[00:56:55] And that's where I am.

[00:56:56] I use some air noise counseling earbuds that were great for that and I can listen to podcasts.

[00:57:02] I can listen to audio.

[00:57:03] I can listen to audio and it works great.

[00:57:07] But if I get a phone call, I've got to shut the tractor down so they can hear me.

[00:57:11] Yeah, so that's a real nice advantage there.

[00:57:14] Our third question, Anthony, what would you tell someone just getting started?

[00:57:20] Be economical.

[00:57:22] If you came in even if you had $50,000 to dump on a startup, don't blow it.

[00:57:28] We've only operated on cash that we've had in the bank or have brought in through the farm.

[00:57:36] We run completely separate finances or our livestock, hey feed anything like that.

[00:57:45] We set aside a separate bank account and we try to operate the farm completely off of that account.

[00:57:52] So that way we know, hey, it's a lot easier to see if you're going broke.

[00:57:57] If I got $50 left in the farm account, like I know it's not bringing in enough.

[00:58:04] Now if I see I've got $10,000 in there, then it's like, oh, but you still got to remember you got to go till your next paycheck on that.

[00:58:14] Right?

[00:58:15] And do what you can or learn what you can.

[00:58:22] I see posts on Facebook of people asking to pay somebody to come out and teach them how to butcher.

[00:58:29] That might be a hard thing to do, but it's better than just taking a few, you're making meat for yourself that you can butcher on site and put in your freezer.

[00:58:39] It's a lot better than paying a butcher every time.

[00:58:43] And if it's a skill you can gain, that's a lot better than paying somebody else to do it every time.

[00:58:50] Excellent advice there, Anthony.

[00:58:52] And one thing I want to touch on, you talked about a separate account for your farm.

[00:58:56] I think that's so important and you talk about if you got $50 in there, that's all you've got in there.

[00:59:03] Mike Machilwitz, and I'm sure I'm saying that wrong.

[00:59:06] I'm practicing with his profit first book.

[00:59:08] I love that book and I love his philosophy behind there.

[00:59:12] In fact, he's writing a personal finance book currently.

[00:59:17] Psychologically, we see that amount in there and we think, oh, that's what we can spend.

[00:59:21] So I try to be very careful with that account and I try to keep a low amount in there and I have some in savings because if I see it and I'm like, oh, that'd be nice to have.

[00:59:34] Well, do I really need it?

[00:59:36] Yeah.

[00:59:37] And I have things I don't need, but at the same time, I think being very economical with it's a great way, especially if you're starting.

[00:59:46] It's still a great way for everyone else too.

[00:59:49] Yeah.

[00:59:50] Like a current situation that would be, say I see $1,000 in there and I'm using to make shift gates right now.

[00:59:59] Oh yeah.

[00:59:59] A piece of a fence with a post in it, bail twine to the next post.

[01:00:04] It's like, hey, I have $1,000 in there.

[01:00:06] I could go buy a couple 12 foot gates and it's like, well, I really don't need to move the cows back through that gate for a month.

[01:00:14] So it's like, let's keep that in there.

[01:00:16] Right.

[01:00:17] And lastly, Anthony, where can others find out more about you?

[01:00:20] So our only social media representation would be a Facebook page of Long-Ear Junction Services.

[01:00:29] The name started with our donkeys and doing some malware and stuff and then bringing in the multi-species bird.

[01:00:39] So we just figured that was a good combination.

[01:00:42] But we're not social media stars by the matter, but we do post up some pictures and videos every now and then our meat sales when we have butcher dates set up.

[01:00:53] Oh, very good. Very good.

[01:00:55] Anthony, really appreciate you coming on and sharing today.

[01:00:59] Thank you. I think it's been good. This is the whole new thing for me other than doing some webinars and whatnot.

[01:01:05] Yeah.

[01:01:06] Well, thank you.

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