On today's episode we have Dale Strickler of Regenerative Wisdom, a consulting company based in Wichita, Kansas. He shares his background of growing up on a diversified family farm and initially pursuing engineering before switching to agronomy after being inspired by the concept of using nature to solve problems in agriculture.
Dale discusses his journey of exploring regenerative practices, including rotational grazing, cover crops, and integrating multiple species like cattle, sheep, and poultry. He emphasizes the importance of feeding soil microbes through living roots and photosynthesis, rather than relying on tillage and external inputs.
Dale emphasizes the need to shift from the dominant corn and soybean monoculture to more diverse, perennial-based systems that mimic natural ecosystems. He advocates for optimizing production on smaller acreages, prioritizing a good quality of life over the pursuit of ever-increasing scale.
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NOTE This file was generated by Descript
00:00:03 --> 00:00:04 Today, we're talking about soil.
00:00:05 --> 00:00:08 We're talking about the ideal soil, how to improve soil.
00:00:08 --> 00:00:10 It's a wonderful conversation
00:00:10 --> 00:00:12 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: And we'll start with the fast five.
00:00:13 --> 00:00:13 What's your name?
00:00:14 --> 00:00:15 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: Dale Strickler,
00:00:16 --> 00:00:18 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: And what's your consulting company called?
00:00:19 --> 00:00:20 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: Regenerative Wisdom.
00:00:22 --> 00:00:23 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: And where are you located?
00:00:24 --> 00:00:27 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: So, we are based right now in Wichita, Kansas.
00:00:29 --> 00:00:30 Right in the middle of everything.
00:00:31 --> 00:00:32 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Oh, yes.
00:00:33 --> 00:00:35 And what year did you start grazing animals?
00:00:36 --> 00:00:38 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: Oh my well, I grew up doing it.
00:00:38 --> 00:00:43 So I'm not sure when, when you know, you can claim to have any
00:00:43 --> 00:00:47 sort of responsibility if, if having responsibility means you
00:00:47 --> 00:00:50 get blamed when things go wrong, that would be at a very young age.
00:00:51 --> 00:00:51 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: There you go.
00:00:52 --> 00:00:56 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: But as far as my own livestock I bought my
00:00:56 --> 00:01:00 own herd for the first time in 96.
00:01:01 --> 00:01:02 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Oh, yes.
00:01:02 --> 00:01:07 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: And, well actually, I had some sheep, I bought sheep
00:01:07 --> 00:01:12 in fall of 90, and bought cattle in 96.
00:01:13 --> 00:01:14 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Oh, okay.
00:01:15 --> 00:01:17 that kind of leads into the next question.
00:01:17 --> 00:01:19 What livestock species have you grazed?
00:01:19 --> 00:01:24 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: Cattle and sheep predominantly cattle but my, my,
00:01:24 --> 00:01:31 I have a major interest in multiple species dying to get into goats.
00:01:31 --> 00:01:35 Dying to get into pastured poultry and pastured pork.
00:01:37 --> 00:01:39 And I'm like, where can we go?
00:01:39 --> 00:01:45 I love to do pastured alligators, but my wife, she, she put the,
00:01:47 --> 00:01:51 put the no alligator sign up said nothing that eats toddlers,
00:01:51 --> 00:01:52 Cal: Attention ranchers!
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00:03:16 --> 00:03:17 For 10 seconds about the farm.
00:03:17 --> 00:03:20 We're combining it with 10 seconds about the podcast.
00:03:20 --> 00:03:24 So not much to it today, but just want to wish those celebrating
00:03:24 --> 00:03:26 Christmas and Merry Christmas.
00:03:26 --> 00:03:29 And to others, we hope it's going well for you.
00:03:29 --> 00:03:33 My wife asked me, she says, you're releasing a episode on Christmas.
00:03:34 --> 00:03:35 I said yes.
00:03:36 --> 00:03:37 Because when I dairied.
00:03:38 --> 00:03:40 I know I milked the cows every day.
00:03:40 --> 00:03:43 So I know some of you are out there.
00:03:44 --> 00:03:46 Moving cows, milking cows doing other chores.
00:03:48 --> 00:03:49 And this episode's for you.
00:03:50 --> 00:03:52 If you happen to get the day off, enjoy it.
00:03:52 --> 00:03:54 Listen, when you get a chance.
00:03:55 --> 00:03:57 Uh, let's jump back to the conversation with Dale.
00:03:59 --> 00:04:02 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: I think the, when you, when you look at
00:04:02 --> 00:04:11 our, the status of US agriculture, I mean, we are completely, totally
00:04:11 --> 00:04:13 dominated by corn and soybeans
00:04:13 --> 00:04:13 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Oh,
00:04:13 --> 00:04:17 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: and I mean, that's where most of our land, how most
00:04:17 --> 00:04:23 of our land is used and what's, what are those corn and soybeans used for
00:04:25 --> 00:04:27 pigs and poultry and.
00:04:27 --> 00:04:28 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Yeah.
00:04:29 --> 00:04:34 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: So, even if you do pasture pigs and poultry,
00:04:36 --> 00:04:40 I mean, grain farming is inherently destructive to soil, and we'll get into
00:04:40 --> 00:04:47 that later, but it is, in isolation, at a corn soybean rotation, your,
00:04:47 --> 00:04:52 your soil slowly just gets worse.
00:04:53 --> 00:04:54 over time, even with no till.
00:04:55 --> 00:04:59 No till slows the destruction, but it doesn't really stop it.
00:05:00 --> 00:05:05 And you can add cover crops and make it better, but if, if you're
00:05:05 --> 00:05:11 grain farming without interventions like that, you're destroying soil.
00:05:11 --> 00:05:14 And so, Our entire country is destroying soil.
00:05:15 --> 00:05:16 Perennials build soil.
00:05:17 --> 00:05:18 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Oh, yeah.
00:05:18 --> 00:05:23 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: And so, that's probably jumping ahead to stuff we'll be
00:05:23 --> 00:05:31 talking about later, but I'm very, very interested in creating pasture systems for
00:05:31 --> 00:05:39 pork and poultry that displace Not, not just have them on grass and then you bring
00:05:39 --> 00:05:46 them in corn and soybean from outside so that you're enriching this spot of land,
00:05:46 --> 00:05:49 but impoverishing a farm somewhere else.
00:05:49 --> 00:05:50 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Yeah, transferring those
00:05:50 --> 00:05:53 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: The feed is being produced on site.
00:05:53 --> 00:05:57 The concentrate feed is being produced on site.
00:05:57 --> 00:06:01 I'm, I'm very, very excited about that prospect.
00:06:01 --> 00:06:03 I think it's an absolute game changer.
00:06:04 --> 00:06:09 And it's something that people talk about scaling up.
00:06:11 --> 00:06:13 You know, well, you can't scale that up.
00:06:13 --> 00:06:15 You can't do that on 10, 000 acres.
00:06:15 --> 00:06:21 I'm like, is it really desirable for every farm to be a million acres?
00:06:22 --> 00:06:23 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Oh, yeah.
00:06:23 --> 00:06:26 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: And we have 200 farmers in the entire country.
00:06:27 --> 00:06:27 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Right.
00:06:28 --> 00:06:31 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: I mean, is it, would it be desirable if we,
00:06:31 --> 00:06:34 if Bill Gates owned every piece of farm ground in the United States?
00:06:34 --> 00:06:35 Is that progress?
00:06:36 --> 00:06:37 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Right, yeah.
00:06:37 --> 00:06:38 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: I don't think it is.
00:06:38 --> 00:06:44 And I think you know, Thomas Jefferson said that one of the
00:06:44 --> 00:06:50 greatest achievements, I believe it was Jefferson said that one of the
00:06:50 --> 00:06:55 greatest achievements in society would be the creating the ability to make
00:06:55 --> 00:06:58 a living off a very small acreage.
00:06:58 --> 00:06:59 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Oh, yeah.
00:07:00 --> 00:07:03 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: And it's not about how many acres you have.
00:07:03 --> 00:07:10 It's about having a good life and a good lifestyle and being happy.
00:07:10 --> 00:07:15 And I don't think owning a million acres creates that.
00:07:15 --> 00:07:21 You just, at some point, you just, I mean, I have worked for a farmer
00:07:21 --> 00:07:24 that did farm a million acres.
00:07:25 --> 00:07:25 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Oh, yes.
00:07:26 --> 00:07:27 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: And not in the U.
00:07:27 --> 00:07:32 S., but, you know, I don't know how you could possibly be happy.
00:07:33 --> 00:07:36 With that level of stress in your life.
00:07:37 --> 00:07:37 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Right, yeah.
00:07:38 --> 00:07:40 I, I agree with that.
00:07:40 --> 00:07:43 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: I think it's more important to have, have systems
00:07:43 --> 00:07:45 of agriculture that we can scale down.
00:07:46 --> 00:07:46 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Oh yeah,
00:07:47 --> 00:07:49 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: Can we make a living on, it's like, name that tune.
00:07:49 --> 00:07:51 Can I make a living on a thousand acres?
00:07:52 --> 00:07:53 Well, I can make a living on 500.
00:07:53 --> 00:07:55 Can I make, no.
00:07:55 --> 00:07:55 And.
00:07:56 --> 00:08:02 I, I think that maybe we ought to, to flip our thinking upside down and
00:08:02 --> 00:08:06 said, what's, how do we want to live?
00:08:06 --> 00:08:08 What kind of food do we want to produce?
00:08:08 --> 00:08:12 And what's the minimum amount of acreage it takes to accomplish that?
00:08:13 --> 00:08:13 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: oh yeah,
00:08:14 --> 00:08:16 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: And if, if you're trying to make a living with
00:08:16 --> 00:08:21 corn and soybeans, it's like it's going to be tough, you know, it might be
00:08:21 --> 00:08:27 tough if you're losing money on every acre, more acres is, is not better.
00:08:28 --> 00:08:36 And so I think margin per acre and, and having an enterprise that's actually
00:08:36 --> 00:08:39 difficult to scale up can be a good thing.
00:08:40 --> 00:08:41 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: oh yeah, yeah.
00:08:42 --> 00:08:47 Well, and you know my dad and I talk about our land base here is
00:08:47 --> 00:08:50 probably not changing too much because of the cost of land.
00:08:50 --> 00:08:51 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: Well,
00:08:51 --> 00:08:55 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: how do we, and I don't like the term maximize, but how
00:08:55 --> 00:09:01 do we optimize what we're doing here and bring in more, more profit for the farm?
00:09:03 --> 00:09:05 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: I think that's a great conversation to have.
00:09:07 --> 00:09:13 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Before we dive a little bit more into and restoring
00:09:13 --> 00:09:17 soil and doing a better job on managing what we have, let's, let's talk
00:09:17 --> 00:09:19 about your background a little bit.
00:09:20 --> 00:09:25 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: Yeah well, I, I grew up on a diversified family farm.
00:09:28 --> 00:09:32 outside of Colony, Kansas, population about 300, about
00:09:33 --> 00:09:33 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Oh, yes.
00:09:33 --> 00:09:37 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: at the time one of those generic towns,
00:09:37 --> 00:09:40 I guess, Colony but still there.
00:09:40 --> 00:09:45 It's claim to fame is it was they put a railroad station there because it was
00:09:45 --> 00:09:49 the highest point in elevation between Kansas City and the Gulf of Mexico.
00:09:49 --> 00:09:53 So if a train stopped there, it was downhill both ways.
00:09:54 --> 00:09:56 So the train could go with the
00:09:56 --> 00:09:57 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: so, it
00:09:57 --> 00:09:58 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: gravity each direction.
00:09:58 --> 00:09:59 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: started.
00:09:59 --> 00:10:01 And is that on Highway 75?
00:10:01 --> 00:10:04 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: Nope, that is on Highway 169.
00:10:05 --> 00:10:05 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Oh, that's
00:10:05 --> 00:10:06 oh,
00:10:06 --> 00:10:07 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: Between Iowa and Burnett.
00:10:07 --> 00:10:09 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: up and jogs over.
00:10:11 --> 00:10:15 Seventy five goes to Bartlesville, but it may jog over in Kansas.
00:10:15 --> 00:10:15 Okay.
00:10:16 --> 00:10:16 Yeah.
00:10:17 --> 00:10:20 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: Yeah, it goes on up through Yates Center and then.
00:10:21 --> 00:10:23 Burlington and up to Topeka.
00:10:24 --> 00:10:32 So, but yeah, and if you're, and it's kind of odd because in, in high school last
00:10:32 --> 00:10:34 thing I wanted to do in life was farm.
00:10:35 --> 00:10:35 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Oh,
00:10:35 --> 00:10:41 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: Because farming to me was just mind numbing,
00:10:42 --> 00:10:51 boring, hours on a tractor, stirring dust and choking and just misery.
00:10:52 --> 00:10:54 And I didn't find it interesting at all.
00:10:55 --> 00:11:02 And then I go to college and I'm, I had no idea what I wanted to be, but the military
00:11:02 --> 00:11:05 rejected me because I had allergies.
00:11:05 --> 00:11:06 So I had to do something.
00:11:07 --> 00:11:12 And so I said, well, I'll, I'll, what's the highest exit salary?
00:11:12 --> 00:11:13 That's engineering.
00:11:13 --> 00:11:14 So I'll go do that.
00:11:15 --> 00:11:20 And got in my engineering classes and I, I was doing well as far as grades,
00:11:20 --> 00:11:23 but I, I wasn't thriving because
00:11:24 --> 00:11:25 wasn't interested.
00:11:25 --> 00:11:30 And my roommates were all agriculture majors and they'd come home and they'd
00:11:30 --> 00:11:33 have the, the neatest discussions.
00:11:33 --> 00:11:37 So I'm like, well, this is way more interesting than what
00:11:37 --> 00:11:38 we learned in calculus today.
00:11:38 --> 00:11:38 And
00:11:38 --> 00:11:39 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Oh, yeah.
00:11:40 --> 00:11:42 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: so, I said, I'll, I'll take a,
00:11:43 --> 00:11:45 I'll take a few ag classes.
00:11:46 --> 00:11:55 And so, one of the first classes I took was crop science, and
00:11:55 --> 00:12:04 the professor, after I turned in my first test, my professor wrote on there, read,
00:12:04 --> 00:12:07 big red up at the top, see me after class.
00:12:07 --> 00:12:08 I'm like, oh,
00:12:08 --> 00:12:09 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: no.
00:12:10 --> 00:12:11 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: so I got an A on the test.
00:12:13 --> 00:12:16 He must think I cheated or something, which is kind of
00:12:16 --> 00:12:18 hard because it's an essay test.
00:12:18 --> 00:12:19 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Oh, yeah.
00:12:19 --> 00:12:22 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: Hard to cheat on an essay test and or be accused
00:12:22 --> 00:12:27 of cheating unless you've got someone cheated off me or, you know, but,
00:12:27 --> 00:12:27 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Right.
00:12:28 --> 00:12:32 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: So, I went into his office and he handed me a
00:12:32 --> 00:12:35 magazine called New Farm Magazine.
00:12:35 --> 00:12:42 He said somehow I got double subscribed to this, so I always get duplicate copies.
00:12:42 --> 00:12:43 I thought you'd like this.
00:12:43 --> 00:12:47 I said, I'm reading the answers on your test.
00:12:48 --> 00:12:49 I think you'd appreciate this.
00:12:50 --> 00:12:51 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: yes.
00:12:51 --> 00:12:54 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: so I read that and, you know, growing up,
00:12:54 --> 00:12:56 we did things very conventionally.
00:12:56 --> 00:13:03 Corn, beans, wheat, cattle, everything, you know, full tillage
00:13:03 --> 00:13:07 and just, you know, very conventional.
00:13:08 --> 00:13:08 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Right.
00:13:08 --> 00:13:11 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: And here's this book is put out by, or this
00:13:11 --> 00:13:13 magazine put out by the Rodale Institute.
00:13:14 --> 00:13:16 You know, the organic, you know, organic gardening,
00:13:17 --> 00:13:17 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: much into
00:13:17 --> 00:13:19 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: but it was aimed at.
00:13:20 --> 00:13:27 Broadacre farmers and it was about cover crops and pastured
00:13:27 --> 00:13:31 poultry and Joel Salatin was in there and you know all these guys.
00:13:31 --> 00:13:36 I'm like, wow, this is fascinating.
00:13:36 --> 00:13:38 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Oh,
00:13:38 --> 00:13:41 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: I mean, this is intellectually challenging.
00:13:41 --> 00:13:45 This is, you know, integrating all these systems together and.
00:13:46 --> 00:13:51 You know, and as a kid, I loved nature and, you know, I'd find a really
00:13:52 --> 00:13:53 cool place out in the woods to play.
00:13:53 --> 00:13:58 And next thing I know, dad has a bulldoze down and it's growing corn and beans.
00:13:58 --> 00:14:03 And I always saw agriculture and nature as, you know, being.
00:14:04 --> 00:14:06 The complete polar opposite of each other.
00:14:08 --> 00:14:13 And that agriculture is something where you destroy that cool place where I can
00:14:13 --> 00:14:18 find salamanders or this neat place, you know, that, you know, had all these neat
00:14:18 --> 00:14:21 snakes or, you know, birds or whatever.
00:14:21 --> 00:14:26 And, and, and here is this completely foreign concept to me that you could
00:14:26 --> 00:14:33 have a system of agriculture that used nature to solve its problem.
00:14:34 --> 00:14:40 And the very back page of that magazine, it had an excerpt from a
00:14:40 --> 00:14:44 book, and I started reading this.
00:14:45 --> 00:14:50 Excerpt, and I'm like, this is the most fascinating concept I've ever come across.
00:14:50 --> 00:14:52 A book called Tree Crops.
00:14:53 --> 00:14:53 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Oh, yes.
00:14:54 --> 00:14:59 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: And it was basically, you know, just like
00:14:59 --> 00:15:04 we were talking you know, corn and soybeans just dominate our landscape.
00:15:04 --> 00:15:06 And you think about the eastern U.
00:15:06 --> 00:15:07 S.
00:15:07 --> 00:15:11 was oak, hickory, oak, hickory, chestnuts.
00:15:12 --> 00:15:18 you know, two carbohydrate producers and, and then hickory would be protein and fat.
00:15:20 --> 00:15:25 And we went and with hand labor chopped all that down,
00:15:26 --> 00:15:33 you know, oak, hickory and chestnuts, perfect pig foods provide pig
00:15:33 --> 00:15:41 food at zero cost, zero inputs, every year, provides shade and it
00:15:41 --> 00:15:44 provides protection from the wind.
00:15:45 --> 00:15:50 And then in our infinite wisdom, we Use hand labor, cut all that down,
00:15:51 --> 00:15:53 so we can grow corn and soybeans.
00:15:53 --> 00:15:53 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Oh,
00:15:54 --> 00:15:54 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: Do what?
00:15:55 --> 00:15:56 Feed pigs.
00:15:57 --> 00:15:57 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Right.
00:15:57 --> 00:15:58 Yeah.
00:15:59 --> 00:16:02 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: So this book, Tree Crops, is all about
00:16:02 --> 00:16:06 using trees to feed livestock,
00:16:06 --> 00:16:07 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Oh, yeah.
00:16:08 --> 00:16:13 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: and and it's a system of agriculture that doesn't
00:16:13 --> 00:16:21 require inputs, and rebuilds soil, rebuilds ecosystems, No pollution, no
00:16:21 --> 00:16:27 soil loss, no, you know, eutrophication of water, any of the other problems
00:16:27 --> 00:16:34 that we have with agriculture and best of all, and the book was written by a
00:16:34 --> 00:16:39 geographer who traveled around the world and saw these different types of systems,
00:16:40 --> 00:16:40 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Oh,
00:16:40 --> 00:16:45 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: he said that every civilization that uses trees to feed
00:16:45 --> 00:16:46 livestock, and there aren't very many.
00:16:48 --> 00:16:51 But they were happy and thriving,
00:16:53 --> 00:16:53 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Yeah.
00:16:55 --> 00:17:00 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: and all these civilizations based on grain ended up in
00:17:00 --> 00:17:07 ruination, both financially and, you know, really started my thought processes going.
00:17:08 --> 00:17:14 You know, thinking about possibilities like, wow, we've been doing things
00:17:14 --> 00:17:18 the wrong way for centuries.
00:17:19 --> 00:17:19 And
00:17:22 --> 00:17:26 maybe we ought to think about, you know, looking at nature and
00:17:26 --> 00:17:30 how does nature do things and how are we doing things different?
00:17:30 --> 00:17:31 I know that
00:17:32 --> 00:17:32 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: yeah.
00:17:33 --> 00:17:35 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: You know, if you fight gravity, you're going to get
00:17:35 --> 00:17:37 real tired and you're going to lose.
00:17:38 --> 00:17:39 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Right.
00:17:40 --> 00:17:43 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: And you can't, if you fight nature,
00:17:43 --> 00:17:44 you're going to go real broke
00:17:45 --> 00:17:45 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Yeah,
00:17:45 --> 00:17:46 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: and you're going to lose.
00:17:47 --> 00:17:47 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: you are.
00:17:49 --> 00:17:55 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: so, you know, we just need to if we can harness nature,
00:17:57 --> 00:17:59 you know, nudge nature.
00:17:59 --> 00:18:04 I think, first of all, we ask nature, what would you, God, what would you
00:18:04 --> 00:18:06 have, what would you have us do?
00:18:07 --> 00:18:08 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Oh, yeah.
00:18:08 --> 00:18:11 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: You know, what, what would you like us to do?
00:18:11 --> 00:18:20 If we are in this for our own selfish purposes, then we
00:18:20 --> 00:18:21 probably are going to fail.
00:18:23 --> 00:18:30 If, if we're in it as stewards you know, stewards of the land placed
00:18:30 --> 00:18:34 here by God, I think we're probably going to have a better outcome.
00:18:34 --> 00:18:35 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Oh, yeah.
00:18:36 --> 00:18:36 Yeah.
00:18:37 --> 00:18:41 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: And, and how have we approached the land historically?
00:18:41 --> 00:18:41 It's
00:18:43 --> 00:18:48 What can we get out of it for, for our own selfish purposes?
00:18:48 --> 00:18:52 Obviously, I mean, we need to, you know, you can call it selfish.
00:18:52 --> 00:18:55 We, we need to live, we need to make a living, we need to provide
00:18:55 --> 00:19:02 for our families, and provide for our, our fellow, fellow people.
00:19:02 --> 00:19:07 But the manner in which we do that you know, if we're after just a quick buck,
00:19:07 --> 00:19:11 that's a whole different thing than if we're trying to provide healthy,
00:19:11 --> 00:19:13 nutritious food for our family.
00:19:13 --> 00:19:14 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Yeah.
00:19:14 --> 00:19:17 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: You know, it's, there's, whenever you
00:19:17 --> 00:19:24 get into the exploitation mindset and greed, bad things are going to
00:19:24 --> 00:19:26 happen, and bad things have happened.
00:19:26 --> 00:19:33 I mean, this, the Middle Eastern grain based agriculture, once it's spread
00:19:33 --> 00:19:38 out from, you know, Abu Hurayya, which is, you know, where they think the
00:19:38 --> 00:19:44 Garden of Eden was located or biblical scholars, archaeologists feel that was.
00:19:45 --> 00:19:48 it spread out from there, I mean, the Sahara desert is
00:19:48 --> 00:19:50 only about 4, 000 years old.
00:19:51 --> 00:19:51 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Oh, yeah.
00:19:52 --> 00:19:53 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: It's a man made desert.
00:19:54 --> 00:19:59 And what caused it, you know, wasn't, there wasn't people burning
00:19:59 --> 00:20:01 fossil fuels 4, 000 years ago,
00:20:01 --> 00:20:02 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Oh.
00:20:02 --> 00:20:02 Right.
00:20:03 --> 00:20:04 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: but people were trying to.
00:20:05 --> 00:20:05 plow up,
00:20:08 --> 00:20:14 you know, cut down trees and growing wheat instead of the vegetation that was there.
00:20:14 --> 00:20:15 And so,
00:20:17 --> 00:20:23 yeah, so tree crops, very, very profound impact on my life and
00:20:23 --> 00:20:25 completely changed the way I think.
00:20:26 --> 00:20:29 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: did tree crops really cement that in your mind that, hey,
00:20:30 --> 00:20:35 engineering's not for you and you want to go into agronomy or, or a related field?
00:20:35 --> 00:20:40 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: Yeah, yeah so, yeah, and, and as far as agronomy you
00:20:40 --> 00:20:46 know, my goal then was to raise livestock, and then I went to beef science class,
00:20:47 --> 00:20:53 and they, we did a break even, know, what's it take to raise a you know, a,
00:20:55 --> 00:21:01 a calf to maturity, and, you know, here's the expenses, and so now you'll notice 80
00:21:01 --> 00:21:03 percent of these expenses are feed cost.
00:21:04 --> 00:21:09 This is why we make you animal science majors take a, an agronomy class or two.
00:21:10 --> 00:21:10 Wait a minute!
00:21:12 --> 00:21:17 All these animal science classes, all, all the classes the animal science
00:21:17 --> 00:21:24 majors take, make up 20 percent of the difference, and the classes, the, the two
00:21:24 --> 00:21:26 agronomy classes make up 80, something's,
00:21:26 --> 00:21:27 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Oh,
00:21:27 --> 00:21:29 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: This, this pyramid's inverted.
00:21:30 --> 00:21:30 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Right.
00:21:31 --> 00:21:34 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: So it seems to me, if I want to raise livestock,
00:21:36 --> 00:21:38 I should learn more about agronomy.
00:21:38 --> 00:21:41 So that afternoon I went and switched my major into agronomy.
00:21:42 --> 00:21:45 So I can raise, profitably raise livestock.
00:21:47 --> 00:21:48 And I still took enough animal.
00:21:48 --> 00:21:49 I finished.
00:21:50 --> 00:21:53 My undergrad, two classes shy of an animal science degree,
00:21:54 --> 00:21:55 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Oh, yes.
00:21:55 --> 00:21:57 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: but I did get an agronomy degree.
00:21:58 --> 00:22:04 I got a certificate to teach science, high school science, and so we've
00:22:04 --> 00:22:06 got a bachelor's in that as well.
00:22:07 --> 00:22:13 Then got a master's in agronomy and rangeland management emphasis and
00:22:13 --> 00:22:15 at a junior college for 15 years.
00:22:16 --> 00:22:22 Went in private industry and bounced around different, different jobs
00:22:22 --> 00:22:26 within private industry seed business, you know, working as an agronomist.
00:22:26 --> 00:22:29 And then you know, a couple years ago,
00:22:32 --> 00:22:43 kind of made the decision that I, I really want to, to basically provide
00:22:43 --> 00:22:46 information for lack of a better term.
00:22:46 --> 00:22:50 You know, I, I, I don't like selling products.
00:22:50 --> 00:22:53 I, I like, I like helping people.
00:22:54 --> 00:22:57 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: It goes back to that teaching that you did for so long.
00:22:57 --> 00:22:59 You're teaching others.
00:22:59 --> 00:23:01 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: Well, I mean, that's, that's what I feel.
00:23:01 --> 00:23:03 I always enjoyed the teaching process.
00:23:03 --> 00:23:08 I did not enjoy dealing with administration and, and administrative
00:23:08 --> 00:23:15 duties and keeping up with state required record keeping, which drove me just nuts.
00:23:16 --> 00:23:16 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: so.
00:23:16 --> 00:23:20 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: Spent, you know, 15 hours a week teaching
00:23:20 --> 00:23:25 and 60 hours a week proven to the state that I was teaching.
00:23:27 --> 00:23:32 And, and so just mind numbingly frustrating.
00:23:32 --> 00:23:38 And so, but now I, I get to, you know, I have clients that I come to
00:23:38 --> 00:23:41 their farms or, or I, you know, I.
00:23:44 --> 00:23:48 Basically come up with plans to solve their, their problems, or at least what
00:23:48 --> 00:23:49 I believe will solve their problems.
00:23:50 --> 00:23:53 People have been very happy so far and
00:23:53 --> 00:24:01 it makes me feel, you know, like I can go give a guy some ideas that can solve
00:24:01 --> 00:24:06 some issues that has been a thorn in his side and he can sleep at night and he can
00:24:06 --> 00:24:12 make more money and he can be happy and he can make that money in a more ecological
00:24:12 --> 00:24:20 fashion so that not just he benefits but Everybody around them also benefits.
00:24:20 --> 00:24:21 It gives me a good feeling.
00:24:21 --> 00:24:23 It's something I really enjoy.
00:24:24 --> 00:24:27 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Now, now throughout your, your teaching career
00:24:27 --> 00:24:32 and your private industry career, did you also have livestock on the side?
00:24:33 --> 00:24:36 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: For the, yeah, pretty much during that
00:24:36 --> 00:24:44 entire time, I did livestock one form or another, mostly cattle and
00:24:46 --> 00:24:49 had my my own land, my own pasture.
00:24:49 --> 00:24:51 I was up by Cortland, Kansas,
00:24:53 --> 00:24:57 until, gosh, wouldn't I move from there, four years ago five years
00:24:57 --> 00:25:03 ago, somewhere around there I had an operation I bought an irrigated corn
00:25:03 --> 00:25:13 and soybean farm and converted it all into irrigated pasture, which is
00:25:13 --> 00:25:16 the not the route most people choose.
00:25:17 --> 00:25:17 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Ha ha ha.
00:25:18 --> 00:25:20 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: Most people go the opposite direction.
00:25:20 --> 00:25:24 They'll plow up grassland to make crops.
00:25:24 --> 00:25:30 And I thought crops, I did that for a few years and made
00:25:30 --> 00:25:31 an incredible amount of money.
00:25:32 --> 00:25:38 And gave 110 percent of it away to the fertilizer dealer, the chemical dealer,
00:25:38 --> 00:25:39 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: yes.
00:25:39 --> 00:25:40 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: the fuel dealer.
00:25:40 --> 00:25:43 You know, there was nothing left for me at the end.
00:25:44 --> 00:25:44 This is ugly.
00:25:45 --> 00:25:48 You know, I'm cashing big checks, but I'm writing bigger ones.
00:25:49 --> 00:25:54 And this would have been, you know, early 2000, which probably the darkest.
00:25:54 --> 00:26:00 I mean, we talk about the 80s, but I think 2000 to 2005 may have been the darkest.
00:26:01 --> 00:26:03 uglier than the 80s, other than
00:26:03 --> 00:26:04 interest rate.
00:26:05 --> 00:26:11 As far as relation between crop prices and input prices, I think the
00:26:11 --> 00:26:13 early 2000s were worse than the 80s.
00:26:14 --> 00:26:18 If we'd had, you know, 18 percent interest, it would have
00:26:18 --> 00:26:20 been an absolute bloodbath.
00:26:22 --> 00:26:26 You know, interest rates were pretty low at that time, so we could, could
00:26:26 --> 00:26:28 kind of hang on by our fingernails.
00:26:30 --> 00:26:31 So I, I made the decision.
00:26:31 --> 00:26:35 I said, you know, input prices are killing me and I'm not making
00:26:35 --> 00:26:37 any money with corn and soybeans.
00:26:38 --> 00:26:41 I'm going to put everything to pasture and everything's going to get
00:26:41 --> 00:26:43 grazed and I'm going to build soil.
00:26:44 --> 00:26:45 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Oh, yeah.
00:26:45 --> 00:26:48 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: And if, if nothing else, if all I
00:26:48 --> 00:26:50 can do is keep my payments made.
00:26:51 --> 00:26:55 Someday my kids are going to end up with one really nice piece of dirt.
00:26:56 --> 00:26:57 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Right, yes.
00:26:57 --> 00:26:59 Leaving it better for the next generation.
00:26:59 --> 00:27:02 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: Yeah, I said, I have a job on the side,
00:27:02 --> 00:27:04 all I need to do is make payments.
00:27:04 --> 00:27:08 And, and they're going to end up with a little piece of black gold.
00:27:10 --> 00:27:19 And I, I developed a really good grazing system I was I had about a hundred pair
00:27:19 --> 00:27:26 on 135 acres, 128, which were irrigated,
00:27:26 --> 00:27:27 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Oh, yeah.
00:27:28 --> 00:27:33 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: and I was grazing those a hundred pair 10 months
00:27:33 --> 00:27:35 out of the year on that property.
00:27:37 --> 00:27:40 And then, you know, for the other two months there was corn stalks and
00:27:42 --> 00:27:44 in abundance, big irrigated areas.
00:27:44 --> 00:27:46 So there's, there's corn stalks everywhere.
00:27:47 --> 00:27:48 And so
00:27:50 --> 00:27:52 it's, I mean, that, that's.
00:27:53 --> 00:27:55 pretty productive piece of ground.
00:27:55 --> 00:27:56 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: yeah, it is.
00:27:56 --> 00:28:00 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: And I had a sequence and my, my best
00:28:00 --> 00:28:03 weaning way, I always did delay.
00:28:03 --> 00:28:11 I, well, always, I, I moved into delayed weaning rather than early
00:28:11 --> 00:28:13 weaning, which some people preach.
00:28:13 --> 00:28:18 I did delayed weaning because as long as you can keep quality feed in front of that
00:28:18 --> 00:28:21 cow why not extend that lactation period?
00:28:22 --> 00:28:22 And.
00:28:23 --> 00:28:28 and make her work a higher percentage of the year.
00:28:29 --> 00:28:30 I mean, you gotta feed her anyhow.
00:28:30 --> 00:28:36 Now, obviously, a lactating cow needs more feed and of higher quality than a
00:28:36 --> 00:28:42 dry cow, but if you've got an abundance of high quality feed, that's cheap.
00:28:43 --> 00:28:44 that you can graze.
00:28:45 --> 00:28:49 Now, if you're hauling alfalfa hay to her, that's a different deal.
00:28:50 --> 00:28:50 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Right,
00:28:50 --> 00:28:51 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: no longer cheap feed.
00:28:52 --> 00:28:58 But if you can have you know, high quality green feed, you know, cover
00:28:58 --> 00:29:04 crops and corn stalks or stockpiled novel endophyte fescue all these different high
00:29:04 --> 00:29:12 quality late fall, early winter options, then there's really no reason to wean.
00:29:13 --> 00:29:18 So I would, I actually ended up weaning it at 10 months of age.
00:29:18 --> 00:29:19 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Oh, yeah.
00:29:19 --> 00:29:22 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: And but even before that, I was having
00:29:24 --> 00:29:27 at eight months, I was weaning 800 pound calves,
00:29:28 --> 00:29:28 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Oh, yeah.
00:29:28 --> 00:29:32 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: fairly large, large frame cattle, but still 800 pound
00:29:32 --> 00:29:39 calves in eight months and, and doing that by keeping from the time they hit the
00:29:39 --> 00:29:41 ground until the time they were weaned.
00:29:42 --> 00:29:44 There was good quality green feed.
00:29:44 --> 00:29:45 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Oh,
00:29:45 --> 00:29:47 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: They weren't eating brown stuff.
00:29:48 --> 00:29:51 They were eating green that entire time.
00:29:52 --> 00:29:58 So it took And the secret to that is, is I had multiple pasture types.
00:29:58 --> 00:30:02 I had cool season pastures, you know, cool season grasses.
00:30:03 --> 00:30:06 I had warm season grass pastures, I had annual pastures,
00:30:07 --> 00:30:08 summer annuals, winter annuals,
00:30:09 --> 00:30:10 crop residues.
00:30:10 --> 00:30:16 I had all these different things, all sequenced so that the animals moved to
00:30:16 --> 00:30:17 what was good at that point in time.
00:30:18 --> 00:30:19 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Oh, yes.
00:30:19 --> 00:30:23 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: And so, and everything was able to be
00:30:23 --> 00:30:26 rested during critical periods.
00:30:26 --> 00:30:31 So that there are times where severe grazing is extremely detrimental
00:30:31 --> 00:30:35 to a plant and there are times where severe grazing is not.
00:30:35 --> 00:30:40 And so if you know when those periods are, you can, you can put a mob of cattle
00:30:40 --> 00:30:42 out there for a short period of time.
00:30:42 --> 00:30:43 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Oh, yeah.
00:30:43 --> 00:30:45 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: Doesn't hurt the grass at all.
00:30:45 --> 00:30:49 You know, if you take it down to bare dirt, obviously it does, but
00:30:50 --> 00:30:52 there are times when the grass is more resilient than others.
00:30:53 --> 00:30:59 So if you, if you know those times when you need to rest, when you, when you
00:30:59 --> 00:31:04 can when the optimum nutrition periods are, when the times where grazing is
00:31:04 --> 00:31:11 not detrimental and you, you can, it's pretty amazing what you can accomplish.
00:31:12 --> 00:31:19 So, you know, 100 pair on 135 acres and doing that for 10 months out of the year.
00:31:20 --> 00:31:26 Yeah, that's, and you know, the normal stocking rate in the
00:31:26 --> 00:31:32 area from six to eight acres of native grass for five months.
00:31:33 --> 00:31:34 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Oh, yes.
00:31:34 --> 00:31:35 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: A couple months of corn stalks
00:31:35 --> 00:31:36 and then four months of hay.
00:31:37 --> 00:31:38 That was normal.
00:31:38 --> 00:31:44 And you know, so, you know, they're six to eight acres for five months.
00:31:44 --> 00:31:46 You know, that's in 1.
00:31:47 --> 00:31:47 2 to 1.
00:31:48 --> 00:31:48 6 acres per acre.
00:31:49 --> 00:31:50 per pair per month.
00:31:50 --> 00:31:54 And I was doing that for essentially a year.
00:31:55 --> 00:31:56 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Oh, yeah.
00:31:56 --> 00:31:59 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: And so, you know, I was 10 to 12 times
00:31:59 --> 00:32:02 the normal, the area stock area.
00:32:03 --> 00:32:08 Now I had irrigation for two months out of the year, still less
00:32:08 --> 00:32:09 than two months out of the year.
00:32:10 --> 00:32:13 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Yeah, yeah, but so you had irrigation, but
00:32:13 --> 00:32:16 you only had enough for two months out of the year to use it Which
00:32:17 --> 00:32:17 being in
00:32:18 --> 00:32:20 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: the water was delivered down the canal.
00:32:20 --> 00:32:28 And the water deliveries were based on the assumption that everybody's growing corn.
00:32:28 --> 00:32:29 So
00:32:29 --> 00:32:32 corn tasseled, they started delivering water.
00:32:33 --> 00:32:38 And when the corn, you know, began to dent or black layer, they'd shut the water off.
00:32:39 --> 00:32:39 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Oh
00:32:39 --> 00:32:44 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: And so I could water most years July and August.
00:32:44 --> 00:32:44 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Oh, yeah.
00:32:45 --> 00:32:47 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: Which is very helpful, obviously.
00:32:47 --> 00:32:47 That's
00:32:47 --> 00:32:48 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Oh, Yeah,
00:32:48 --> 00:32:50 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: usually the times you need it most.
00:32:51 --> 00:32:51 But
00:32:52 --> 00:32:54 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: That's when I would like to irrigate.
00:32:54 --> 00:32:54 Yeah.
00:32:55 --> 00:32:58 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: if you had to pick two months to irrigate,
00:32:58 --> 00:33:00 yeah, those are the ones I'd pick.
00:33:00 --> 00:33:06 But you know it's If you're trying to, you know, if you're dry at other times,
00:33:07 --> 00:33:09 the year doesn't do you that much good.
00:33:10 --> 00:33:12 It's sure better than nothing.
00:33:12 --> 00:33:13 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Oh, yeah.
00:33:14 --> 00:33:14 Yeah.
00:33:15 --> 00:33:18 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: it was, there were times where
00:33:18 --> 00:33:20 it was an absolute lifesaver.
00:33:20 --> 00:33:26 But the funny thing is that once I got my irrigated pastures really up and going
00:33:26 --> 00:33:28 I really didn't need that irrigation.
00:33:29 --> 00:33:30 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Oh, yeah
00:33:30 --> 00:33:34 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: I mean, I, I really did not have a
00:33:34 --> 00:33:36 lot of a lot of drought stress.
00:33:36 --> 00:33:38 At least not on my warm season grass pastures.
00:33:38 --> 00:33:42 Now, on my cool season grass pastures, I still applied irrigation water.
00:33:43 --> 00:33:46 But my I planted a field of eastern gamma grass.
00:33:46 --> 00:33:49 My book, Managing Pasture, the cover photo,
00:33:49 --> 00:33:50 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Oh, yes.
00:33:50 --> 00:33:50 Oh
00:33:50 --> 00:33:53 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: that, that's one of my eastern gamma grass pastures.
00:33:53 --> 00:34:01 And you know, it, it never showed drought stress and, and trying to think.
00:34:03 --> 00:34:06 I don't believe I irrigated that for the last
00:34:09 --> 00:34:12 At least not for the last five years that I had that.
00:34:13 --> 00:34:14 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: oh yes,
00:34:14 --> 00:34:16 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: And then, maybe ten.
00:34:17 --> 00:34:17 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: yeah,
00:34:18 --> 00:34:21 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: I went a long time without irrigating that field
00:34:21 --> 00:34:23 because it just never showed stress.
00:34:25 --> 00:34:29 Now, the cool season grasses and the annuals, I still, still irrigate it.
00:34:30 --> 00:34:30 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: yeah,
00:34:31 --> 00:34:33 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: When I was raising corn and soybeans you know,
00:34:33 --> 00:34:38 we were originally, when I bought the place, it had a 17 acre inch allotment.
00:34:38 --> 00:34:40 Next year it got cut to five.
00:34:40 --> 00:34:45 The first year I bought it, got cut to five, which is kind of catastrophic.
00:34:46 --> 00:34:48 Doesn't go very far on corn and beans.
00:34:48 --> 00:34:56 And so I, when I went to pasture, I went, Made two changes,
00:34:56 --> 00:35:01 planned everything pasture, and then replaced all my open ditch
00:35:01 --> 00:35:04 irrigation with subsurface drip tape.
00:35:06 --> 00:35:13 At, at, at one time the I was told that I was, had the only subsurface
00:35:13 --> 00:35:17 drip tape pasture in the world.
00:35:17 --> 00:35:21 Yeah.
00:35:22 --> 00:35:24 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Dale, let's switch gears just a little bit into our
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00:36:25 --> 00:36:25 com
00:36:26 --> 00:36:29 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: We're going to take a deeper dive into building soils.
00:36:29 --> 00:36:33 And you, you were talking about even your farm you had there in colony.
00:36:33 --> 00:36:34 Was it colony?
00:36:34 --> 00:36:38 No, it was in Portland, Kansas that you had over a year.
00:36:38 --> 00:36:40 You were able to build some soil there.
00:36:42 --> 00:36:48 Before we actually talk about how should a farmer build soil, what is the ideal soil?
00:36:49 --> 00:36:55 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: Oh, well, you'd like a soil to do what you ask of it.
00:36:55 --> 00:36:57 And what do we ask of soil?
00:36:57 --> 00:37:00 Well, it, it has to grow plants.
00:37:00 --> 00:37:02 It has to be capable of growing plants.
00:37:03 --> 00:37:04 What do plants need?
00:37:04 --> 00:37:12 They need moisture, and so the soil has to be able to absorb rainfall and hold it and
00:37:12 --> 00:37:14 supply it to the plant when it needs it.
00:37:14 --> 00:37:20 And, and the roots have to be able to grow down to a depth in that, and the
00:37:20 --> 00:37:26 limiting factor to root penetration in the soil is oxygen penetration in the soil.
00:37:26 --> 00:37:32 So the soil has to be porous to allow oxygen to diffuse
00:37:32 --> 00:37:34 down to a depth in the soil.
00:37:34 --> 00:37:34 Thank you.
00:37:35 --> 00:37:38 And and the soil has to provide mineral nutrients.
00:37:39 --> 00:37:43 When the plant needs it, in, in the form that they need it, you know, nitrogen,
00:37:43 --> 00:37:49 phosphorus, potassium, sulfur, magnesium, calcium, all those essential nutrients.
00:37:50 --> 00:37:57 So, and a lot of people think of soil as being, you know, inner particles that
00:37:57 --> 00:38:00 we dump fertilizer onto and plants grow.
00:38:00 --> 00:38:02 That's really not how it works.
00:38:02 --> 00:38:08 Every nutrient that a plant takes up's been probably passed through
00:38:08 --> 00:38:10 a microbial body multiple times.
00:38:10 --> 00:38:10 Thank you very much.
00:38:11 --> 00:38:17 And so when we are managing soil it's not so much about managing rock
00:38:17 --> 00:38:19 particles, it's about managing microbes.
00:38:21 --> 00:38:28 And, and that's, once you forget the, the idea that you're managing
00:38:28 --> 00:38:33 little ground up rocks and instead you're managing microbes, then
00:38:33 --> 00:38:37 you start to begin the journey of understanding how to build them.
00:38:39 --> 00:38:44 And that's really, you know, when people talk about soil health, you
00:38:44 --> 00:38:45 know, that's such a vague term.
00:38:45 --> 00:38:47 What, what does soil health mean?
00:38:47 --> 00:38:48 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Right.
00:38:48 --> 00:38:52 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: You know, really, soil health is just like,
00:38:52 --> 00:38:53 you know, having a healthy body.
00:38:53 --> 00:38:57 It does what it's supposed to you know, get out of bed in the morning.
00:38:57 --> 00:39:01 You've got energy to do things and free of illnesses.
00:39:01 --> 00:39:04 So a soil health
00:39:04 --> 00:39:10 you're, you're basically talking about having a good functional
00:39:12 --> 00:39:13 microbial population in the soil.
00:39:14 --> 00:39:17 Cause that's really where the action takes place.
00:39:17 --> 00:39:22 Everything the plant needs, microbes can provide other than moisture.
00:39:23 --> 00:39:28 But even again, there are microbes that help plants take up moisture.
00:39:28 --> 00:39:36 And so, It does need to rain, but your plants can be much, much more
00:39:37 --> 00:39:44 resilient to drought if you have the proper microbial population in the soil.
00:39:45 --> 00:39:48 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: So what I'm hearing you say, Del, is I should have
00:39:48 --> 00:39:50 paid closer attention in microbiology.
00:39:51 --> 00:39:53 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: I think we all should have paid more
00:39:53 --> 00:39:55 attention in microbiology class.
00:39:56 --> 00:40:01 When I took soils class undergraduate soils my professor
00:40:01 --> 00:40:06 said, we're going to spend today talking about soil microbiology.
00:40:07 --> 00:40:10 and the reason we only spend a day on it.
00:40:12 --> 00:40:17 Well, he said, this is the single most important study on the planet.
00:40:19 --> 00:40:21 He said, because this is what life depends upon.
00:40:22 --> 00:40:23 Soil microbiology.
00:40:24 --> 00:40:27 All life on this planet depends on microbes in the soil.
00:40:28 --> 00:40:31 And so this is probably the most important study on the planet.
00:40:32 --> 00:40:37 He said, and I'm going to apologize in advance, because we're only going
00:40:37 --> 00:40:39 to spend one class period on it.
00:40:40 --> 00:40:40 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Oh,
00:40:40 --> 00:40:45 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: because it's not important, But because I only
00:40:45 --> 00:40:48 know what I was taught, and I was only taught about one class period's worth.
00:40:49 --> 00:40:49 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Oh, yeah.
00:40:49 --> 00:40:51 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: That I was taught about nitrogen,
00:40:51 --> 00:40:54 phosphorus, potassium, and moisture.
00:40:55 --> 00:40:59 And I can tell you what the, the mineralogy of the clay particle
00:40:59 --> 00:41:02 is, but I can't tell you anything about the microbes in the soil.
00:41:03 --> 00:41:05 This is the single most important study on the planet.
00:41:07 --> 00:41:08 And I'm like, wow.
00:41:10 --> 00:41:12 So I ended up taking a soil microbiology class.
00:41:13 --> 00:41:17 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Dale, talking about the managing your microbes, How
00:41:17 --> 00:41:23 does a farmer out here improve the health of their microbes in their soil?
00:41:25 --> 00:41:27 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: you, you improve the health of your livestock.
00:41:27 --> 00:41:31 You feed them, you feed them, you give them a nutritious diet.
00:41:31 --> 00:41:33 You know, diet's everything for us.
00:41:34 --> 00:41:37 It's everything for our livestock and it's everything for.
00:41:38 --> 00:41:42 And, and you shelter, shelter.
00:41:42 --> 00:41:47 You don't let them get too hot and, and you try to keep them warm in the winter.
00:41:47 --> 00:41:52 And so you do that with keeping a roof over their heads.
00:41:53 --> 00:41:57 Have, have a layer of protective crop residue on top of the soil.
00:41:58 --> 00:42:02 And we used to think that microbes fed primarily on crop residue.
00:42:03 --> 00:42:06 Now the crop residue is basically there for shelter.
00:42:07 --> 00:42:07 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: oh yes,
00:42:08 --> 00:42:11 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: Microbes eat root exudates.
00:42:11 --> 00:42:19 And a lot of people didn't, don't know this, but of all the glucose that plants
00:42:19 --> 00:42:22 produce in photosynthesis depending on the plant species, whether they're
00:42:22 --> 00:42:28 perennial or annual, from 25 to 50 percent of that glucose is leaked out
00:42:28 --> 00:42:31 of the root system and feeds microbes.
00:42:32 --> 00:42:33 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: oh yes.
00:42:33 --> 00:42:36 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: That is what soil microbes, the
00:42:36 --> 00:42:40 beneficial soil microbes that we want, that's what they eat.
00:42:41 --> 00:42:48 Now you think about, now in the perennial ecosystem, those microbes are
00:42:48 --> 00:42:50 being fed 12 months out of the year.
00:42:51 --> 00:42:56 Because the roots are alive, you know, maybe the tops aren't growing,
00:42:56 --> 00:42:57 but the roots are still alive.
00:42:57 --> 00:42:58 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: right.
00:42:59 --> 00:43:04 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: But in our annual cropping systems you know, corn
00:43:04 --> 00:43:08 and soybeans, they have roots that are alive maybe 4 months out of the year.
00:43:09 --> 00:43:14 And, you know, the first month, the root systems are pretty tiny.
00:43:14 --> 00:43:15 So,
00:43:15 --> 00:43:22 so we have covered our country with an agricultural system that does not feed
00:43:22 --> 00:43:24 microbes, but about one third of the year.
00:43:25 --> 00:43:32 And so that's why our soils tend to become depleted in annual cropping systems.
00:43:33 --> 00:43:36 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: You know Dale, in my reading and my thinking
00:43:36 --> 00:43:40 about it, I had never really thought about it from that point of view.
00:43:41 --> 00:43:44 You know, when we're farming ground, I'm thinking about tillage doing
00:43:44 --> 00:43:48 such damage to the structure, and there's no protection on the soil.
00:43:49 --> 00:43:53 I hadn't thought about it from the, the point of feeding the microbes.
00:43:53 --> 00:43:57 Because, like you said, there's not living matter on there with
00:43:57 --> 00:43:58 roots that are living to feed them.
00:43:59 --> 00:44:00 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: Yeah.
00:44:00 --> 00:44:06 And, and, and so, you know, I'm a big proponent of no till have been for years.
00:44:06 --> 00:44:13 But when, you know, organic farmers come to me and they say, well, I till
00:44:13 --> 00:44:15 and my organic matter is going up.
00:44:15 --> 00:44:16 Oh, you're mistaken.
00:44:17 --> 00:44:19 But those organic farmers.
00:44:20 --> 00:44:26 Even though they're doing tillage, they're also growing cover crops for a nitrogen
00:44:26 --> 00:44:28 source or, you know, for weed control.
00:44:29 --> 00:44:29 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: yeah.
00:44:29 --> 00:44:31 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: And so they're, they're tilling these under
00:44:31 --> 00:44:35 and they say, well, I'm incorporating that top growth into the soil.
00:44:35 --> 00:44:36 No, that's not the benefit.
00:44:37 --> 00:44:39 It's the growing of this.
00:44:39 --> 00:44:44 It's the root exudates while that cover crops growing, not the
00:44:44 --> 00:44:46 incorporation of it at the end.
00:44:46 --> 00:44:46 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Oh, yeah.
00:44:47 --> 00:44:50 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: It's the, the root exudates while that cover
00:44:50 --> 00:44:55 crop is growing that's really doing the heavy lifting of soil improvement,
00:44:55 --> 00:45:01 organic matter increases, and now when people tell me that, I say,
00:45:01 --> 00:45:03 well, just think what you'd have if you didn't do all that tillage too.
00:45:03 --> 00:45:05 And
00:45:06 --> 00:45:08 so if you really want to improve soil.
00:45:10 --> 00:45:11 You have to stop tilling.
00:45:11 --> 00:45:13 I mean, tilling is destructive.
00:45:13 --> 00:45:15 I mean, just, it just is.
00:45:15 --> 00:45:17 There's no question about that.
00:45:17 --> 00:45:21 I mean, that's, that's I hate to use the term settled science,
00:45:21 --> 00:45:22 but that's settled science.
00:45:22 --> 00:45:23 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Oh, yeah.
00:45:23 --> 00:45:23 yeah.
00:45:24 --> 00:45:26 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: And the less tillage you do, the better.
00:45:26 --> 00:45:31 And, but the second piece of the puzzle is the elimination of fallow.
00:45:32 --> 00:45:39 You want every, all of agriculture really is converting sunlight into
00:45:39 --> 00:45:40 something useful through photosynthesis.
00:45:41 --> 00:45:42 And then
00:45:42 --> 00:45:43 value
00:45:45 --> 00:45:47 through every, through a chain of events.
00:45:48 --> 00:45:54 And so, if you have sunlight hitting bare soil, that is sunlight going to waste
00:45:54 --> 00:45:56 that you can't ever go back in time.
00:45:57 --> 00:46:02 The goal should be to utilize every photon and put it to use.
00:46:02 --> 00:46:10 And if you're not turning it into corn or a cow or, you know, whatever, a papaya,
00:46:10 --> 00:46:16 then it can be used to feed microbes.
00:46:16 --> 00:46:21 That, that perform all sorts of essential tasks for it, including just soil
00:46:21 --> 00:46:30 improvement, and that's how you build soil, and now if it's amazing, you read
00:46:30 --> 00:46:37 a gardening book, I, you know, they tell you, you know, get your wheelbarrow and
00:46:37 --> 00:46:42 dump all this compost or whatever on the soil and say, well, that's fine and dandy.
00:46:42 --> 00:46:50 I was speaking at a conference one time and the audience was mostly farmers,
00:46:50 --> 00:46:52 but we had a suburban gardener.
00:46:53 --> 00:46:54 And
00:46:54 --> 00:46:54 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: yes.
00:46:55 --> 00:46:58 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: I was talking about cover crops and all this.
00:46:58 --> 00:47:03 And she just says, I don't know, she stands up and says, I don't
00:47:03 --> 00:47:05 know why you farmers are so stupid.
00:47:06 --> 00:47:07 You can't figure this out.
00:47:07 --> 00:47:11 She said, here's what you need to do.
00:47:11 --> 00:47:13 You just need to do what I do.
00:47:13 --> 00:47:18 I go to the, the city dump and I scoop out their leaf pile.
00:47:20 --> 00:47:22 And their composted leaf pile.
00:47:22 --> 00:47:23 And I fill up a pickup bed.
00:47:24 --> 00:47:29 And I haul two loads, two pick up loads every year and put it on my garden.
00:47:30 --> 00:47:31 And I said, well, how big is your garden?
00:47:32 --> 00:47:33 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Right.
00:47:33 --> 00:47:36 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: And so we calculated out and I
00:47:36 --> 00:47:39 said, did the math in my head.
00:47:39 --> 00:47:44 I said, now you realize that this guy over here, that farms a thousand acres.
00:47:45 --> 00:47:50 To do what you do on your garden, it would take 250, 000 trips
00:47:50 --> 00:47:51 to the dump with his pickup.
00:47:51 --> 00:47:52 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Oh, yeah.
00:47:53 --> 00:47:56 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: Said number one, he can't possibly
00:47:56 --> 00:47:58 do a thousand trips a day
00:47:59 --> 00:47:59 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Right.
00:48:00 --> 00:48:00 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: for 250
00:48:00 --> 00:48:02 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Yeah.
00:48:02 --> 00:48:05 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: and there's not that much stuff there.
00:48:06 --> 00:48:11 You know, you take the entire city the dumps, all this stuff here,
00:48:11 --> 00:48:17 it's, it wouldn't cover 1000 acre farm with compost and you cannot,
00:48:19 --> 00:48:22 you know, I call that the musical chairs method.
00:48:23 --> 00:48:26 You know, you're not really increasing organic matter.
00:48:26 --> 00:48:28 You're just moving it from one place to another.
00:48:28 --> 00:48:29 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: it somewhere else.
00:48:29 --> 00:48:31 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: You're, you're impoverishing all these
00:48:31 --> 00:48:35 city yards to enrich a few gardens.
00:48:35 --> 00:48:37 You can't do that on a.
00:48:39 --> 00:48:40 at scale.
00:48:40 --> 00:48:42 can't do it on a planetary scale.
00:48:42 --> 00:48:48 If you really want to increase soil organic matter, you have to do it by
00:48:48 --> 00:48:52 capturing the sunlight that falls on that piece of land and move it underground.
00:48:53 --> 00:48:55 That's, that's through photosynthesis.
00:48:55 --> 00:49:01 That really is the only way you can truly Enriched soil.
00:49:02 --> 00:49:06 Any other method basically involves burning a lot of fossil
00:49:06 --> 00:49:08 fuel to move stuff around.
00:49:10 --> 00:49:15 And so that in a nutshell is, is basically how you improve soil.
00:49:16 --> 00:49:20 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: So, so what I'm hearing just to to feed the microbes,
00:49:20 --> 00:49:22 you've got to manage your grass.
00:49:22 --> 00:49:23 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: Yes.
00:49:23 --> 00:49:25 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: And obviously when we're talking about grazing,
00:49:25 --> 00:49:29 we're not doing too much tilling, but a lot of people out there are grazing
00:49:29 --> 00:49:31 cover crops and and other things.
00:49:31 --> 00:49:33 In my area, it's pasture.
00:49:34 --> 00:49:36 So, managing those pastures better.
00:49:37 --> 00:49:38 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: Yes.
00:49:38 --> 00:49:47 And so, like, your area and your, so, let's just say that you've got Bermuda
00:49:47 --> 00:49:50 grass and you've got tall fescue.
00:49:51 --> 00:49:55 Bermuda grass is a warm, very warm season grass, tropical grass,
00:49:56 --> 00:49:59 that really photosynthesizes about four months out of the year.
00:50:01 --> 00:50:05 Now, the roots are alive the other eight months, but you're
00:50:05 --> 00:50:08 really not getting that pumping.
00:50:09 --> 00:50:14 That big, massive input of sugar moving to the roots and feeding
00:50:14 --> 00:50:17 those microbes, except for about four months out of the year.
00:50:18 --> 00:50:22 So, and if your Bermuda grass is grazed down to where it looks
00:50:22 --> 00:50:25 like a, a gulf putting green,
00:50:27 --> 00:50:29 even those four months are not.
00:50:29 --> 00:50:32 So, there are a couple things you can do there.
00:50:32 --> 00:50:35 One is to extend the period of photosynthesis.
00:50:36 --> 00:50:39 by adding cool season species into the mixture.
00:50:40 --> 00:50:46 Now that can be cool season annuals like cereal rye or annual ryegrass
00:50:46 --> 00:50:51 or arrowleaf clover, crimson clover, that can also provide nitrogen.
00:50:52 --> 00:50:54 Or maybe it can be
00:50:55 --> 00:51:00 something like alfalfa, another perennial out there,
00:51:00 --> 00:51:00 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Oh, yeah.
00:51:02 --> 00:51:05 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: that would extend that period of photosynthesis.
00:51:05 --> 00:51:08 And then you want to leave enough leaf area.
00:51:08 --> 00:51:11 After each grazing episode.
00:51:12 --> 00:51:17 Now, if you're continuous grazing, animals, especially horses, tend to go
00:51:17 --> 00:51:19 back to the same plants over and over.
00:51:20 --> 00:51:23 so you have, you know, bare ground, and then you got big tall rank stuff
00:51:23 --> 00:51:29 that's all turned brown because it, it's become over mature and
00:51:29 --> 00:51:33 no longer photosynthesizing and is shading out what's below it.
00:51:33 --> 00:51:35 You get this patch grazing.
00:51:36 --> 00:51:43 One of the values of rotational grazing is that you can manage how
00:51:44 --> 00:51:50 much of that leaf that you take at a time and so that, if you're grazing
00:51:50 --> 00:51:54 below about four inches, you're, you're letting sunlight hit bare soil
00:51:55 --> 00:51:55 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Oh, yeah.
00:51:55 --> 00:51:57 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: and that solar energy is going to go to waste
00:51:58 --> 00:52:03 and if, and then you manage the rest, you want to have enough rest.
00:52:04 --> 00:52:08 Because the first thing a plant does after it's lost leaf area is
00:52:08 --> 00:52:10 try to re establish those leaves.
00:52:11 --> 00:52:15 It has to invest, usually some, some root reserves, some carbohydrates,
00:52:16 --> 00:52:17 to rebuild those leaves.
00:52:18 --> 00:52:23 And if you graze those leaves too quickly then the plant is, is in this
00:52:23 --> 00:52:29 constant state of, Rebuilding, it's, it's not moving sugars down to the roots,
00:52:30 --> 00:52:32 so it's, it's not feeding microbes.
00:52:33 --> 00:52:39 You want those leaves to be in a, in a constant state of generosity.
00:52:41 --> 00:52:42 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Oh, yes.
00:52:42 --> 00:52:43 Yes.
00:52:43 --> 00:52:45 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: you want those plants to be generous.
00:52:46 --> 00:52:50 And they can't be generous if they're on the brink of starvation themselves.
00:52:50 --> 00:52:51 You have to have
00:52:51 --> 00:52:54 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: they've got to be healthy to be generous
00:52:54 --> 00:52:55 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: Right, you know,
00:52:55 --> 00:52:55 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Yeah.
00:52:56 --> 00:53:00 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: you, you board an airplane, they say, you know, in
00:53:00 --> 00:53:04 case something happens, put on your own oxygen mask before you put it on someone
00:53:04 --> 00:53:11 else's, because if you pass out, you can't help the person beside you, and
00:53:11 --> 00:53:16 a plant, a plant that's on the brink of starvation, because it has inadequate
00:53:16 --> 00:53:22 leaf area, too much defoliation, too much grazing, can't help itself, and
00:53:22 --> 00:53:28 it can't help the microbes, and so just, you know, You know, managing that
00:53:28 --> 00:53:34 grazing, and it's not necessarily lighter grazing, and that's a real misconception.
00:53:36 --> 00:53:42 You know, I work with people who have, just by managing the timing,
00:53:42 --> 00:53:46 and doing rotational grazing, so that they, you know, no individual
00:53:46 --> 00:53:48 plant gets grazed too low.
00:53:48 --> 00:53:53 But all plants get grazed and then all plants are uniformly rested and come
00:53:53 --> 00:54:00 back and then resting it at critical times and then coming back and taking
00:54:00 --> 00:54:03 half of it as dormant season grazing.
00:54:03 --> 00:54:09 I've, I've got clients that have increased their stocking rate five fold.
00:54:10 --> 00:54:10 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Oh, wow.
00:54:11 --> 00:54:12 Yeah.
00:54:13 --> 00:54:15 Increasing it that much will make a difference on the
00:54:15 --> 00:54:18 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: everybody assumes that, oh, you, you have to,
00:54:19 --> 00:54:24 you have to sacrifice economically in order to manage pastures correctly.
00:54:24 --> 00:54:26 And that's, that's absolutely not the case.
00:54:26 --> 00:54:31 You can actually increase your stocking rate while treating your
00:54:31 --> 00:54:34 grass better if you know how to do it.
00:54:35 --> 00:54:37 And so, you know, the fescue.
00:54:38 --> 00:54:42 You know, that's a cool season grass that barely photosynthesizes in mid summer.
00:54:44 --> 00:54:51 Does, if, if you go out into a fescue patch in August, that ground is rock
00:54:51 --> 00:54:56 hard because microbes reverse compaction.
00:54:57 --> 00:55:00 And if those microbes aren't getting fed, your soil gets hard.
00:55:01 --> 00:55:06 And so, if, you know, I work with some of my clients, we
00:55:06 --> 00:55:09 are drilling summer annuals.
00:55:10 --> 00:55:19 Like, sudangrass or sunflowers or soybeans or even corn into
00:55:19 --> 00:55:21 fescue during the summer.
00:55:22 --> 00:55:25 Now, if they have to have an alternate source of grazing during the summer.
00:55:26 --> 00:55:34 But, it is absolutely amazing how loose and mellow that soil becomes.
00:55:36 --> 00:55:36 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Oh, yes.
00:55:37 --> 00:55:39 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: And how much more productive the field
00:55:39 --> 00:55:42 becomes every year you do that.
00:55:43 --> 00:55:46 I mean, you're generating more seed, but you're making better soil as well.
00:55:47 --> 00:55:47 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Oh, yeah.
00:55:47 --> 00:55:51 And so by doing that, you're getting increased production out
00:55:51 --> 00:55:52 of your fescue when it is growing.
00:55:53 --> 00:55:54 And then you're getting this other.
00:55:55 --> 00:55:57 Whatever you planted in there to forage for mint.
00:55:57 --> 00:55:58 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: Yeah.
00:55:58 --> 00:56:03 And I, you know, first time I saw this practice, I thought, Oh man, that's
00:56:03 --> 00:56:05 gotta be really hard on your fescue.
00:56:06 --> 00:56:09 And I mean, back in the seventies, first time I ever saw it
00:56:10 --> 00:56:11 before I even went to college.
00:56:11 --> 00:56:13 Oh, that's got to be on your grass.
00:56:14 --> 00:56:16 No, no, take a look at this.
00:56:16 --> 00:56:24 And I went down into a brome grass field where we were doing this in September,
00:56:24 --> 00:56:28 and I could take a brome grass leaf and stretch it up and touch my belt.
00:56:29 --> 00:56:32 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: oh, yes, oh
00:56:32 --> 00:56:36 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: that's still, still, you know, three foot plus.
00:56:36 --> 00:56:37 And,
00:56:37 --> 00:56:37 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Yes,
00:56:38 --> 00:56:40 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: so it's like, wow!
00:56:40 --> 00:56:44 I have never seen the fall growth cycle of brome.
00:56:45 --> 00:56:46 And this is not a seed head.
00:56:47 --> 00:56:47 This is
00:56:48 --> 00:56:48 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: yeah,
00:56:48 --> 00:56:49 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: a hay meadow.
00:56:50 --> 00:56:53 They planted this after that brome was hayed off in June.
00:56:54 --> 00:56:59 And so this was fall growth cycle of that brome.
00:57:00 --> 00:57:01 30 some inches tall.
00:57:02 --> 00:57:02 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: oh wow,
00:57:03 --> 00:57:04 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: I've never seen that before.
00:57:05 --> 00:57:06 There's something to this.
00:57:07 --> 00:57:07 you,
00:57:09 --> 00:57:14 it's modifying the microclimate, creating a cooler microclimate where a
00:57:14 --> 00:57:22 cool season grass can, can grow without being heat stressed, and adding fruit
00:57:22 --> 00:57:25 exudates from additional photosynthesis.
00:57:26 --> 00:57:29 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Now one thing going on that path a little bit more
00:57:29 --> 00:57:33 Doing a pasture drill and putting some of that else, some other species in there.
00:57:33 --> 00:57:35 What if you don't have a pasture drill?
00:57:36 --> 00:57:40 Is there some species you could broadcast to get the same type of result?
00:57:40 --> 00:57:44 I know broadcasting is not going to be effective, as effective,
00:57:45 --> 00:57:49 there's not, not everyone's got a pasture drill or the capability to use
00:57:49 --> 00:57:50 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: sure.
00:57:50 --> 00:57:52 There are some species out of broadcast.
00:57:52 --> 00:57:57 As far as summer annuals teff grass is one that broadcasts really easy.
00:58:00 --> 00:58:01 Crabgrass.
00:58:01 --> 00:58:05 works great into cool season pastures like that for a summer annual.
00:58:06 --> 00:58:10 Now, having some perennial legumes and forbs out there.
00:58:11 --> 00:58:16 red clover, white clover, your annual lespedezes, not
00:58:16 --> 00:58:18 sericea, but annual lespedezes.
00:58:18 --> 00:58:19 The ones
00:58:19 --> 00:58:19 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: have
00:58:19 --> 00:58:19 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: that,
00:58:20 --> 00:58:20 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: sericea.
00:58:21 --> 00:58:23 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: yeah, the ones that cattle actually eat
00:58:23 --> 00:58:30 not the, not the noxious weeds, sericea and chicory, plantain are
00:58:30 --> 00:58:32 very, very beneficial species.
00:58:32 --> 00:58:33 You can get some diversity out there.
00:58:34 --> 00:58:39 Now, if you continuously graze, you put those into endophyte infected
00:58:39 --> 00:58:44 fescue and you continuously graze, well, you've got a plant that tastes
00:58:44 --> 00:58:50 nasty, with a few scattered plants of these really good things out there.
00:58:51 --> 00:58:51 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Oh.
00:58:51 --> 00:58:53 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: You know what's going to happen.
00:58:53 --> 00:58:55 Animals just graze them out.
00:58:56 --> 00:59:02 So, that's another big benefit of rotational grazing, is that
00:59:03 --> 00:59:07 every plant gets bitten once, but not twice, and then you move.
00:59:07 --> 00:59:13 And then you keep moving them around so that, and if you can provide an
00:59:14 --> 00:59:16 alternate grazing source in late summer,
00:59:18 --> 00:59:25 you can allow all those legumes to produce seed You know, give them a 60
00:59:25 --> 00:59:30 to 90 day rest in late summer, allow all those legumes to produce seed, and then
00:59:30 --> 00:59:31 come back and graze them in the fall.
00:59:32 --> 00:59:35 And, you know, every cow pie is full of seed now.
00:59:36 --> 00:59:36 and
00:59:36 --> 00:59:37 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Oh
00:59:37 --> 00:59:38 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: sprouts new plants.
00:59:39 --> 00:59:42 And so you can keep those legumes.
00:59:42 --> 00:59:45 People say, ah, those legumes don't grow in my area.
00:59:45 --> 00:59:47 You know, they only last a year.
00:59:47 --> 00:59:49 I said, well, are you rotational grazing?
00:59:49 --> 00:59:49 No.
00:59:50 --> 00:59:51 Well, that's why.
00:59:51 --> 00:59:53 It's not anything unique about your area.
00:59:54 --> 01:00:01 It's that you're not grazing in a manner conducive to their survival and receding.
01:00:01 --> 01:00:01 They're
01:00:02 --> 01:00:02 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Right.
01:00:02 --> 01:00:03 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: getting rest.
01:00:03 --> 01:00:07 They're getting bit off over and over and over again, and
01:00:07 --> 01:00:08 they're not allowed to recede.
01:00:09 --> 01:00:15 And if you do that, you can maintain a good balanced stand indefinitely.
01:00:16 --> 01:00:20 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Well, I will admit that's one area of my grazing
01:00:20 --> 01:00:24 management I have to do a better job on, is giving some rest time there
01:00:24 --> 01:00:28 for those legumes to go to seed.
01:00:29 --> 01:00:34 You know, we, we used to have a lot more vetch Than we do now, and I was
01:00:34 --> 01:00:37 saving one pasture that had really nice, I wanted to go seed in that
01:00:37 --> 01:00:40 pasture and my neighbor sprayed.
01:00:40 --> 01:00:46 And using an airplane and they got like 400 yards over on our side and
01:00:46 --> 01:00:48 killed all that vetch and clover.
01:00:49 --> 01:00:53 I had been so I could get it to go to seed.
01:00:54 --> 01:00:57 Because we don't have as much because I haven't been aware
01:00:57 --> 01:00:58 of that on my management.
01:00:58 --> 01:01:02 That's one area I've got to improve is let those clovers, vetch,
01:01:03 --> 01:01:07 go to seed so that seed bank is really filled with seeds for it.
01:01:07 --> 01:01:11 Because those cows, you turn them into a pasture with vetch clover,
01:01:11 --> 01:01:13 that's the first thing they go eat.
01:01:13 --> 01:01:16 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: Oh yeah, and why wouldn't they?
01:01:16 --> 01:01:16 It's
01:01:17 --> 01:01:21 low in fiber and high in protein, and especially if they're in a
01:01:21 --> 01:01:25 grass dominated system that's low in protein, that's what they're craving.
01:01:26 --> 01:01:26 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Oh, yeah.
01:01:27 --> 01:01:27 Yeah.
01:01:28 --> 01:01:34 Now, something I saw on one of your videos, I think with in cat soil
01:01:34 --> 01:01:40 for water, you showed a picture that I thought was really interesting.
01:01:40 --> 01:01:45 Canola, canola, where that'd been growed, the root space from
01:01:45 --> 01:01:47 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: Oh, yeah.
01:01:47 --> 01:01:51 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: soybean after that, and the soybean root used that
01:01:52 --> 01:01:55 canola root path to send down roots.
01:01:55 --> 01:01:57 I thought that was very interesting.
01:01:58 --> 01:01:58 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: Yeah.
01:01:58 --> 01:02:02 So, like I said, the limiting factor to root penetration
01:02:02 --> 01:02:04 in soil is lack of oxygen.
01:02:06 --> 01:02:10 Roots have to have at least 10 percent oxygen in order to grow.
01:02:11 --> 01:02:15 And that's, that's pretty much true of all plants.
01:02:16 --> 01:02:20 some plants have evolved mechanisms to allow them to grow.
01:02:21 --> 01:02:22 root deeper.
01:02:22 --> 01:02:28 And one mechanism is eryngima tissue, like cattails, in,
01:02:28 --> 01:02:28 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: yes.
01:02:29 --> 01:02:30 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: in the growing ponds.
01:02:31 --> 01:02:35 Cattail roots, if you've ever taken a cattail root, they're spongy.
01:02:35 --> 01:02:41 And the cattail stem is all spongy and, well, as long as any of that
01:02:41 --> 01:02:47 green part of that cattail is above water, oxygen can diffuse into that
01:02:47 --> 01:02:53 and go down the, that spongy tissue and reach the roots, which is how
01:02:53 --> 01:02:55 cattails can grow in standing water.
01:02:56 --> 01:02:57 Most plants can't.
01:02:58 --> 01:02:58 Eastern
01:02:58 --> 01:02:59 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: interesting.
01:03:00 --> 01:03:02 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: has arancuma tissue in the roots, so it can
01:03:02 --> 01:03:04 tolerate a lot of standing water.
01:03:05 --> 01:03:05 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Oh.
01:03:06 --> 01:03:09 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: Reed canary grass has arancuma tissue.
01:03:10 --> 01:03:16 Another thing is, if you understand, most of the oxygen that's used
01:03:16 --> 01:03:17 in soil is used by microbes.
01:03:19 --> 01:03:22 Especially, and the warmer the soil gets, the more microbes,
01:03:22 --> 01:03:24 the more oxygen microbes use.
01:03:24 --> 01:03:27 So in the summertime, we're very oxygen deficient.
01:03:28 --> 01:03:28 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Oh yeah.
01:03:29 --> 01:03:31 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: In the wintertime, however, when the soil
01:03:31 --> 01:03:34 temperature is below 50 degrees, microbes in general go dormant.
01:03:36 --> 01:03:41 Cool season plants can grow below 50 degrees, even though microbes can't.
01:03:42 --> 01:03:47 So, there's a window in there where cool season plants, all of
01:03:47 --> 01:03:49 a sudden there's oxygen in the soil and there wasn't before.
01:03:51 --> 01:03:57 And so, you you need to if you have plants that grow, roots
01:03:59 --> 01:04:02 between 50 degrees and 32.
01:04:03 --> 01:04:07 When the soil freezes, you can poke holes through those hard pans.
01:04:08 --> 01:04:13 And then the next year, when those roots decay, warm season plants can
01:04:13 --> 01:04:16 use those passages to grow their root.
01:04:16 --> 01:04:16 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: yes.
01:04:17 --> 01:04:21 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: So you can just create a, a, a deeper rooted system.
01:04:22 --> 01:04:23 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Very interesting.
01:04:24 --> 01:04:26 Dale, I appreciate you coming on.
01:04:26 --> 01:04:31 It is time for us to shift gears and do our famous four questions.
01:04:31 --> 01:04:34 Cal: Kencove Farm Fence is a proud supporter of the Grazing Grass
01:04:34 --> 01:04:36 podcast and graziers everywhere.
01:04:37 --> 01:04:41 At Kencove Farm Fence, they believe there's true value within the community
01:04:41 --> 01:04:43 of graziers and land stewards.
01:04:43 --> 01:04:46 The results that follow proper management and monitoring can
01:04:46 --> 01:04:48 change the very world around us.
01:04:48 --> 01:04:53 That's why Kencove is dedicated to providing an ever expanding line of
01:04:53 --> 01:04:56 grazing products to make your chores easier and your land more abundant.
01:04:57 --> 01:05:00 Whether you're growing your own food on the homestead or grazing
01:05:00 --> 01:05:05 on thousands of acres, Kencove has everything you need to do it well.
01:05:06 --> 01:05:10 From reels to tumblewheels, polytwine to electric nets, water valves to
01:05:10 --> 01:05:14 water troughs, you'll find what you're looking for at Kencove.
01:05:15 --> 01:05:18 They carry brands like Speedrite, O'Brien's, Kiwitech,
01:05:18 --> 01:05:20 Strainrite, Jobe, and more.
01:05:21 --> 01:05:24 Kencove is proud to be part of your regenerative journey.
01:05:24 --> 01:05:27 Call them today or visit Kencove.com.
01:05:27 --> 01:05:33 And be sure to follow them on social media and subscribe to the Kencove YouTube
01:05:33 --> 01:05:39 channel @KencoveFarmFence for helpful how to videos and new product releases!
01:05:40 --> 01:05:42 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: questions we ask of all of our guests,
01:05:43 --> 01:05:45 sponsored by Kencove Farm Fence.
01:05:45 --> 01:05:49 And our first question, what is your favorite grazing grass
01:05:49 --> 01:05:51 related book or resource?
01:05:53 --> 01:05:54 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: Oh, gosh.
01:05:54 --> 01:05:58 You know, the, the tree crops is, is a favorite of mine.
01:05:58 --> 01:06:02 Even though it's not specific to grass, it's the concepts.
01:06:02 --> 01:06:02 Okay.
01:06:03 --> 01:06:03 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Oh yeah.
01:06:05 --> 01:06:08 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: Jim Garrish's books have been very influential for
01:06:08 --> 01:06:13 me you know, management, intensive grazing, kick the hay habit.
01:06:14 --> 01:06:17 Those, those were very influential to me early on.
01:06:17 --> 01:06:22 I need to plug my own book, managing pasture, but I don't know if I
01:06:22 --> 01:06:27 can, I'm not sure if I'm allowed to claim that as one of my favorites.
01:06:28 --> 01:06:33 Yeah, so those were probably the, the, the watershed books
01:06:33 --> 01:06:34 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: yes.
01:06:34 --> 01:06:35 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: Grazing career.
01:06:35 --> 01:06:37 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Yeah, excellent resources there.
01:06:37 --> 01:06:39 What's your favorite tool for the farm?
01:06:41 --> 01:06:42 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: Laptop.
01:06:43 --> 01:06:44 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Oh, yes.
01:06:45 --> 01:06:49 I'm not sure we've had laptop as an answer before for that question.
01:06:50 --> 01:06:50 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: really
01:06:50 --> 01:06:54 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: we've had YouTube and maybe more specific sites.
01:06:54 --> 01:06:56 I'm trying to think back.
01:06:56 --> 01:06:58 Right off, I can't think of it.
01:06:58 --> 01:07:02 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: yeah, I mean the ability to access information.
01:07:02 --> 01:07:02 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Oh,
01:07:02 --> 01:07:04 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: You can make intelligent decisions.
01:07:04 --> 01:07:06 Just, just critical.
01:07:08 --> 01:07:10 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: There is so much information out there.
01:07:10 --> 01:07:15 It's become a issue of making sure you're finding the right information.
01:07:17 --> 01:07:17 Yeah,
01:07:18 --> 01:07:18 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: That's true.
01:07:19 --> 01:07:23 There's a lot of conflicting information there, especially in election years.
01:07:23 --> 01:07:24 So,
01:07:24 --> 01:07:26 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Oh, yes, especially.
01:07:26 --> 01:07:31 Yeah, hopefully it's calming down now and things can get kind of back to normal.
01:07:32 --> 01:07:32 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: have to
01:07:32 --> 01:07:32 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: question.
01:07:34 --> 01:07:36 What would you tell someone just getting started?
01:07:36 --> 01:07:38 Oh, yes.
01:07:38 --> 01:07:41 Oh, yes.
01:07:43 --> 01:07:46 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: You know, The there's a saying that one of my
01:07:46 --> 01:07:50 favorites, you can you can either learn from others, you know, books,
01:07:50 --> 01:07:53 reading, conversations, or you can pee on the electric fence yourself.
01:07:55 --> 01:08:02 And you know, educating yourself is so much cheaper and takes less, less
01:08:02 --> 01:08:05 time than making the mistakes yourself.
01:08:05 --> 01:08:12 So, so learn all you can before you do, before you do anything.
01:08:14 --> 01:08:15 Self educate.
01:08:15 --> 01:08:18 Best advice I can give anybody in any field.
01:08:19 --> 01:08:20 Constantly learn.
01:08:21 --> 01:08:23 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Yeah, excellent advice there.
01:08:23 --> 01:08:26 And lastly, Dale, where can others find out more about you?
01:08:26 --> 01:08:30 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: You can go to our, my website, regenerativewisdom.
01:08:30 --> 01:08:30 com.
01:08:31 --> 01:08:37 We have excellent material on there, and we do on farm consultations, we
01:08:37 --> 01:08:41 do speaking events, and we, we have some material there on the website.
01:08:41 --> 01:08:42 So, Dr.
01:08:42 --> 01:08:48 Elizabeth Heilman and I that's our company, and, and so, check us out.
01:08:49 --> 01:08:50 See what we have to offer.
01:08:51 --> 01:08:52 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Oh, wonderful.
01:08:52 --> 01:08:57 Now you all had a school just not too long ago that I really
01:08:57 --> 01:08:59 go to, and I didn't make it up there.
01:08:59 --> 01:09:02 Or do you, do you have one planned for the future?
01:09:03 --> 01:09:05 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: We will do them in the future.
01:09:05 --> 01:09:08 We don't have one in the works right now,
01:09:08 --> 01:09:09 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: Oh yeah, yeah.
01:09:09 --> 01:09:10 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: but
01:09:10 --> 01:09:11 cal_1_12-12-2024_173444: very good, Dale.
01:09:11 --> 01:09:13 Appreciate you coming on and sharing with us today.
01:09:14 --> 01:09:14 dale_1_12-12-2024_173444: you bet.
01:09:14 --> 01:09:16 Thank you very much for the time.
01:09:16 --> 01:09:18 Appreciate the opportunity to talk to you.
01:09:18 --> 01:09:21 Cal: Thank you for listening to this episode of the grazing grass podcast,
01:09:22 --> 01:09:26 where we bring you stories and insights into grass-based livestock production.
01:09:26 --> 01:09:29 If you're new here, we've got something just for you.
01:09:29 --> 01:09:31 Our new listener resource guide.
01:09:31 --> 01:09:35 Is packed with everything you need to get started on your listening
01:09:35 --> 01:09:37 journey with a grazing grass podcast.
01:09:38 --> 01:09:41 It gives you more information about the podcast about myself.
01:09:42 --> 01:09:43 And next steps.
01:09:44 --> 01:09:48 You can grab your free copy at grazinggrass.com slash guide.
01:09:49 --> 01:09:50 Don't miss out.
01:09:51 --> 01:09:53 And Hey, do you have a grazing story to share?
01:09:54 --> 01:09:58 We're always looking for passionate producers to feature on the show,
01:09:58 --> 01:10:03 whether you're just starting out or have years of experience your story matters.
01:10:03 --> 01:10:05 Head over to grazing grass.
01:10:05 --> 01:10:07 Dot com slash guest.
01:10:07 --> 01:10:09 To learn more and apply to be a guest.
01:10:10 --> 01:10:13 We'd love to share your journey with our growing community of grazers.
01:10:15 --> 01:10:16 Until next time.
01:10:16 --> 01:10:18 Keep on grazing grass.
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