In this episode , we feature Austin Unruh, the founder of Trees for Graziers. Austin's journey into the world of silvopasture and agroforestry began in 2017 when he started planting trees along streams to improve water quality. Since then, his passion for integrating trees into pasture systems has grown, and he has worked with grass-fed dairy operators to transform their pastures using innovative agroforestry practices. His expertise in overcoming challenges, such as unsuccessful tree planting attempts and livestock management, has positioned him as a leader in the field, achieving a remarkable 90% success rate in tree establishment.
Topics covered in the episode include:
- The integration of trees into pasture systems through silvopasture
- Challenges and opportunities in implementing silvopasture
- Strategies for protecting young trees from cattle and other threats
- Best practices for tree establishment and care
- Tree care and watering tips
- Insights into silvopasture resources and tools
You should listen to this episode to gain a deeper understanding of how integrating trees into pastures can create a harmonious balance between agriculture and ecology. Austin Unruh shares invaluable insights, practical strategies, and lessons learned from his experiences, making it an essential listen for anyone interested in regenerative agriculture and agroforestry. Whether you're a seasoned grazer or new to the concept, this episode promises to inspire and educate, offering tips and resources to help you successfully implement silvopasture on your farm.
Links Mentioned in the Episode
Trees for Graziers
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NOTE This file was generated by Descript
00:00:00 --> 00:00:03 Speaker: On today's episode, we are talking silvopasture.
00:00:04 --> 00:00:08 Mainly focusing on getting your tree started and off to a good start.
00:00:09 --> 00:00:11 So we'll get started with the fast five.
00:00:13 --> 00:00:13 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: what's your name?
00:00:14 --> 00:00:15 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: My name is Austin Unru.
00:00:17 --> 00:00:18 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: And Austin, what's your business's name?
00:00:19 --> 00:00:21 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: The name of the business is Trees for Graziers.
00:00:22 --> 00:00:25 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Well, that is really good because most of
00:00:25 --> 00:00:27 us here would say we're graziers.
00:00:28 --> 00:00:28 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: Perfect.
00:00:29 --> 00:00:30 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: And where are you located
00:00:30 --> 00:00:33 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: I'm in Morgantown, Pennsylvania, so if anyone's
00:00:33 --> 00:00:38 familiar, Lancaster County, a lot of Amish and conservative Mennonites in our area.
00:00:39 --> 00:00:42 We're in southeastern Pennsylvania, so about an hour from Philadelphia.
00:00:44 --> 00:00:45 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: now, is that the county where the
00:00:45 --> 00:00:47 raw milk fight was going on?
00:00:47 --> 00:00:48 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: indeed.
00:00:49 --> 00:00:54 the the Amos Miller, his son helped me out on some tree plantings a couple times.
00:00:54 --> 00:00:55 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh yes.
00:00:55 --> 00:00:57 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: So we have a couple of connections there.
00:00:57 --> 00:00:58 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Yeah.
00:00:58 --> 00:00:58 Very good.
00:00:59 --> 00:01:02 And when did you get interested in silvopasture?
00:01:03 --> 00:01:06 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: So I got started in the broader
00:01:06 --> 00:01:08 scheme of agroforestry first.
00:01:08 --> 00:01:11 So planting trees in an agricultural context.
00:01:12 --> 00:01:16 I started planting trees along streams as a water quality practice
00:01:16 --> 00:01:16 back in
00:01:17 --> 00:01:17 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh yeah.
00:01:18 --> 00:01:21 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: And a couple of our first clients
00:01:21 --> 00:01:25 were were grass fed operators, so doing grass fed dairy in particular.
00:01:26 --> 00:01:29 And they were interested in getting trees established in their pastures.
00:01:30 --> 00:01:34 I said, well, there's not many people doing this, and I don't have great
00:01:35 --> 00:01:39 means of getting these trees established in an actively grazed pasture.
00:01:40 --> 00:01:42 But let's try out a couple things.
00:01:42 --> 00:01:49 So it was around 2019 and 2020 that we started to experiment with means of
00:01:49 --> 00:01:51 getting trees established in pastures.
00:01:53 --> 00:01:54 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh, very good.
00:01:55 --> 00:01:57 Cal: Welcome to the grazing grass podcast.
00:01:57 --> 00:02:00 The podcast dedicated to sharing the stories of grass-based
00:02:00 --> 00:02:04 livestock producers, exploring regenerative practices that improve
00:02:04 --> 00:02:07 the land animals and our lives.
00:02:07 --> 00:02:12 I'm your host, Cal Hardage and each week we'll dive into the journeys,
00:02:12 --> 00:02:16 challenges, and successes of producers like you, learning from
00:02:16 --> 00:02:21 their experiences, and inspiring each other to grow, and graze better.
00:02:22 --> 00:02:26 Whether you're a seasoned grazier or just getting started.
00:02:26 --> 00:02:28 This is the place for you.
00:02:29 --> 00:02:30 Speaker 3: Calling all ranchers.
00:02:31 --> 00:02:34 If you're looking for a better way to optimize your grazing operation
00:02:34 --> 00:02:38 and rev up your bottom line, noble Research Institute can help.
00:02:39 --> 00:02:43 Noble's unique approach to education pairs their own field research with
00:02:43 --> 00:02:47 the experience of their ranch managers and advisors to find practical
00:02:47 --> 00:02:49 solutions to producers challenges.
00:02:50 --> 00:02:53 Every noble educational course breaks down the science and
00:02:53 --> 00:02:58 principles to help ranchers like you build skills and confidence in
00:02:58 --> 00:03:03 regenerative land management, grazing practices, and business management.
00:03:04 --> 00:03:08 Noble Research Institute ensures that every insight they share has
00:03:08 --> 00:03:11 been tested in real world conditions.
00:03:11 --> 00:03:15 So ranchers get solutions that work, not just theories.
00:03:16 --> 00:03:17 Visit noble.org
00:03:17 --> 00:03:21 to learn more and browse Noble's educational resources.
00:03:22 --> 00:03:25 Speaker 2: For 10 seconds about the farm and the podcast, we're
00:03:25 --> 00:03:30 gonna talk about today's episode with Austin from Trees for Grazers.
00:03:31 --> 00:03:36 As you'll find out as you listen to this episode, the information he's giving me
00:03:36 --> 00:03:38 for my context, I'm a little bit late.
00:03:39 --> 00:03:43 For some of you, it's going to be timely, but if you're south
00:03:43 --> 00:03:44 of me, it's going to be too late.
00:03:45 --> 00:03:50 So Austin and I, the grazing grass and trees for grazers are from partnership.
00:03:54 --> 00:03:57 Grazing grass and trees for grazers.
00:03:57 --> 00:04:01 We are going to partner to release more of these episodes for you.
00:04:02 --> 00:04:06 We already have it on the calendar to record later this year to
00:04:06 --> 00:04:08 get a a late summer episode.
00:04:10 --> 00:04:13 And what I'd like for from you as.
00:04:15 --> 00:04:20 So if you have any questions about SIL Pastor that you want answered, send
00:04:20 --> 00:04:22 them to me, cadillac grazing grass.com
00:04:23 --> 00:04:25 and Austin and I will discuss those.
00:04:26 --> 00:04:29 Um, I'm looking forward to this because silvopasture is something I've
00:04:29 --> 00:04:31 always wanted to do a better job of.
00:04:33 --> 00:04:37 And, you know, explore the income potential from having some SVO pasture.
00:04:38 --> 00:04:40 But I haven't done a very good job.
00:04:40 --> 00:04:44 I'm hoping this partnership with Austin will help me do a better job on my farm.
00:04:45 --> 00:04:47 And with that, let's get back to Austin.
00:04:47 --> 00:04:47 I.
00:04:49 --> 00:04:52 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: So you're, you're starting to get to the point, you've got
00:04:53 --> 00:04:59 a fair number of years to see how that starting of trees and pastures are going.
00:04:59 --> 00:05:04 But before we talk about that why did you go into Agroforestry?
00:05:05 --> 00:05:05 I.
00:05:05 --> 00:05:07 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: Why did I go into agroforestry?
00:05:07 --> 00:05:09 I wanted to do something outside.
00:05:10 --> 00:05:11 I wanted to do something with my hands.
00:05:12 --> 00:05:17 I wanted to do something where I could leave a beneficial legacy and leave
00:05:17 --> 00:05:22 and to know that I'm doing something valuable for, for others, for the planet,
00:05:22 --> 00:05:24 for all those things, for wildlife.
00:05:24 --> 00:05:26 So that's what brought me into Agroforestry.
00:05:26 --> 00:05:30 I think Agroforestry is a really neat combination and
00:05:30 --> 00:05:37 integration of both conservation agricultural production, right?
00:05:37 --> 00:05:37 So
00:05:38 --> 00:05:40 of those in the same package.
00:05:40 --> 00:05:42 And that's what, that's what intrigues me about it.
00:05:42 --> 00:05:47 And you can do it on a real landscape scale where you can create a more
00:05:47 --> 00:05:53 productive environment economically, but also a more ecologically diverse,
00:05:53 --> 00:05:54 ecologically healthy environment.
00:05:54 --> 00:05:58 So that's really, I think what, what drew me to Agroforestry specifically.
00:05:59 --> 00:06:04 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: And when, to be honest, I'm not familiar with
00:06:04 --> 00:06:10 Agroforestry, but when you think about that, is that growing wood or growing
00:06:10 --> 00:06:17 forest for harvest for like pine wood or other things along that line?
00:06:17 --> 00:06:20 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: So Agroforestry is a suite of practices.
00:06:20 --> 00:06:24 So it encompasses forest farming, which is like growing mushrooms and ramps
00:06:24 --> 00:06:26 and that kind of stuff in the woods.
00:06:26 --> 00:06:26 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: okay.
00:06:28 --> 00:06:30 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: it also includes alley cropping, so growing
00:06:30 --> 00:06:34 tree and tree crops in amongst your, your row crops like wheat or corn.
00:06:35 --> 00:06:37 Sy pasture, which is what we focus on at Trees for Graziers.
00:06:39 --> 00:06:41 Riparian buffers and windbreaks.
00:06:41 --> 00:06:43 So that's the suite
00:06:43 --> 00:06:43 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh, okay.
00:06:44 --> 00:06:47 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: that fall under the category of agroforestry.
00:06:47 --> 00:06:52 And I initially got started in riparian buffers, so stream streamside
00:06:52 --> 00:06:54 forests is what I got started in.
00:06:54 --> 00:06:57 There's a lot of pollution here coming out of Lancaster County, going
00:06:57 --> 00:06:59 out down into the Chesapeake Bay.
00:06:59 --> 00:07:03 So there's a lot of effort to plant trees along streams.
00:07:04 --> 00:07:09 And then we, from there, we migrated over to Silva Pasture as well,
00:07:09 --> 00:07:12 although we still do a lot of stream buffers in addition to that.
00:07:14 --> 00:07:17 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: So when, when we think about just on that riparian area, is
00:07:17 --> 00:07:23 that, how far from your waterways are you going with trees to provide that buffer?
00:07:23 --> 00:07:25 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: It depends on the farm and it also depends
00:07:25 --> 00:07:27 on the program that is funding it.
00:07:28 --> 00:07:32 Some programs will say we are gonna do a minimum of 35 feet.
00:07:32 --> 00:07:32 From the
00:07:33 --> 00:07:33 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh yeah.
00:07:33 --> 00:07:36 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: Other programs will say, Hey, we'll
00:07:36 --> 00:07:38 go out to 180 feet or 300 feet.
00:07:39 --> 00:07:39 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh,
00:07:39 --> 00:07:42 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: you know, it's a little bit gray how
00:07:42 --> 00:07:45 wide the riparian area actually is.
00:07:45 --> 00:07:49 In reality, it's the more, the better for water quality.
00:07:50 --> 00:07:50 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: right.
00:07:50 --> 00:07:52 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: you can add, the more leaf matter you can
00:07:52 --> 00:07:57 add, the more shade you can have for the stream in our context, the better it is.
00:07:57 --> 00:08:01 But you have to balance that out with the needs of the farm as well.
00:08:02 --> 00:08:09 in the area where, where land goes for 30 to $50 an acre, you can't
00:08:09 --> 00:08:13 be taking out 300 feet along side the
00:08:13 --> 00:08:13 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: right.
00:08:13 --> 00:08:14 Yes.
00:08:16 --> 00:08:21 S So how did you make the leap or, or start being more aware
00:08:21 --> 00:08:25 of graziers, obviously through the land value is one reason.
00:08:26 --> 00:08:29 I'm sure you had pushback from farmers not wanting to go very far out there.
00:08:30 --> 00:08:30 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: yes.
00:08:30 --> 00:08:31 Yep.
00:08:31 --> 00:08:36 a very interesting way to combine the, the, the conservation benefits of
00:08:37 --> 00:08:41 on the landscape in an area where land is at a premium, like literally at a premium.
00:08:42 --> 00:08:47 So that you can get both the conservation value of it and also continue to
00:08:47 --> 00:08:49 be using that land productively.
00:08:49 --> 00:08:54 So it was about like I said, it was about 20 18, 20 19 that some of our clients
00:08:54 --> 00:09:00 started to, to want us to figure out how to integrate trees into their pastures.
00:09:00 --> 00:09:03 So it was just, I think, two farmers to start out
00:09:03 --> 00:09:03 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh yeah.
00:09:04 --> 00:09:08 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: And I, but I realized pretty quickly that if
00:09:08 --> 00:09:11 we could figure out how to successfully.
00:09:12 --> 00:09:15 trees into a pasture without a whole bunch of additional work for the
00:09:15 --> 00:09:17 landowner, if we could figure that out.
00:09:17 --> 00:09:20 The scale of applicability is huge, right?
00:09:20 --> 00:09:21 Because there's
00:09:22 --> 00:09:26 and millions of acres out there that are in pasture where folks could
00:09:26 --> 00:09:28 use additional trees spread out.
00:09:30 --> 00:09:30 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Yeah.
00:09:30 --> 00:09:31 I've been talking to my dad.
00:09:32 --> 00:09:37 Just, we've had some wind of late, little bit more than usual.
00:09:37 --> 00:09:37 We, we have.
00:09:38 --> 00:09:39 A lot of wind anyway.
00:09:39 --> 00:09:43 But we noticed in one of the lots up here by the barn, another tree's blown down.
00:09:43 --> 00:09:46 I'm like, we've, we've gotta plant some trees.
00:09:46 --> 00:09:50 And he told me a while back, we were talking, he says, I think we should build
00:09:50 --> 00:09:56 some shade structure structures out in the pastures with this shade crawl cloth.
00:09:57 --> 00:10:00 And of course, I immediately am thinking, why are we trying
00:10:00 --> 00:10:02 to do one better than nature?
00:10:02 --> 00:10:04 Why don't we just let nature handle that?
00:10:04 --> 00:10:09 We get some trees planted out there instead of buying all the products
00:10:09 --> 00:10:11 and bring in here to make shade.
00:10:12 --> 00:10:12 So
00:10:12 --> 00:10:13 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: the upside of the shade cloth
00:10:13 --> 00:10:15 is you can get shade right away.
00:10:15 --> 00:10:18 Once you're done with that chore and you created that shading structure, you're,
00:10:18 --> 00:10:19 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: true.
00:10:19 --> 00:10:20 It's an immediate thing.
00:10:20 --> 00:10:20 Yeah.
00:10:20 --> 00:10:24 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: But in the long term, the trees, the trees
00:10:24 --> 00:10:25 will provide a one of a better shade.
00:10:26 --> 00:10:29 Livestock tend to prefer to go under trees because not only are they
00:10:29 --> 00:10:34 getting shade, but they're also getting cooling because the, the trees, like
00:10:34 --> 00:10:38 through evapotranspiration, they're actually cooling the air underneath.
00:10:38 --> 00:10:42 So it's a better shade and you get all kinds of additional benefits
00:10:43 --> 00:10:43 right?
00:10:44 --> 00:10:46 It's just that it takes a while and that's, that's gonna be
00:10:47 --> 00:10:50 throughout syllable pasture is there's a lot of value to it.
00:10:51 --> 00:10:52 But it takes a while to get there.
00:10:52 --> 00:10:54 That's, that's, that's the key thing.
00:10:54 --> 00:10:59 If we could plant trees and they're, they're like an annual crop where we
00:10:59 --> 00:11:03 get a yield off of 'em right away in the first year, we would have trees
00:11:03 --> 00:11:04 all over throughout our pastures
00:11:05 --> 00:11:06 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh yes.
00:11:06 --> 00:11:11 You know, isn't it that Chinese proverb that says The best time to plant a tree is
00:11:11 --> 00:11:14 20 years ago, the second best time today.
00:11:14 --> 00:11:15 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: today.
00:11:15 --> 00:11:16 S indeed.
00:11:16 --> 00:11:16 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Yeah.
00:11:17 --> 00:11:17 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: Yep.
00:11:18 --> 00:11:22 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Was it with those early farmers, was it that they
00:11:22 --> 00:11:27 wanted trees out into their grazing areas or their pastures, or was it kind of a
00:11:27 --> 00:11:33 compromise when you're trying to get this riparian buffer in and they're trying
00:11:33 --> 00:11:35 to get the maximum amount of grazing.
00:11:36 --> 00:11:40 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: Yeah, so the, the conversation that I
00:11:40 --> 00:11:43 had with farmers is very different if we're trying to do a riparian buffer.
00:11:44 --> 00:11:47 Versus a s silver pasture with a buffer.
00:11:47 --> 00:11:50 And usually we're, we're partnering with a, a nonprofit group.
00:11:50 --> 00:11:51 Like a nonprofit
00:11:51 --> 00:11:53 the ones having a conversation with the farmer.
00:11:53 --> 00:11:54 They're the ones
00:11:54 --> 00:11:55 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh, okay.
00:11:55 --> 00:11:58 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: here's a funding pot that we have access to
00:11:58 --> 00:12:00 that we can use to pay for this buffer.
00:12:01 --> 00:12:04 But the, the thing for the farmer is that they're, they're losing production because
00:12:04 --> 00:12:06 they can't let their animals in there.
00:12:06 --> 00:12:06 So they're
00:12:07 --> 00:12:09 ground, they're losing crop and ground, whatever it is.
00:12:10 --> 00:12:15 And typically in our area, there's there's the CREP program that will
00:12:15 --> 00:12:19 pay the farmer a certain amount, a land rental rate to take that
00:12:19 --> 00:12:21 land out of production and put it
00:12:21 --> 00:12:22 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh, okay.
00:12:22 --> 00:12:23 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: instead.
00:12:24 --> 00:12:29 So that's, that's the trade off for the farmer is you lose productivity, but you
00:12:30 --> 00:12:34 a, a rental check or something else that you're gonna get out of this.
00:12:35 --> 00:12:41 In a silver pasture context, looking at working with a farmer and saying.
00:12:41 --> 00:12:46 We're going to increase your productivity on your land because of less heat
00:12:46 --> 00:12:51 stress, because of being able to drop pods or fruits or whatever it is.
00:12:51 --> 00:12:56 And we're also gonna get more ecological value here and, and hopefully we can
00:12:56 --> 00:13:01 find a group that's willing to bring money because of that ecological value.
00:13:01 --> 00:13:02 So it's a conservation group
00:13:02 --> 00:13:03 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh yeah.
00:13:03 --> 00:13:05 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: or whoever it is that's willing to
00:13:05 --> 00:13:09 bring money to reduce the cost of investing in those trees for the farmer.
00:13:10 --> 00:13:11 So it's a very different conversation.
00:13:12 --> 00:13:17 I, I also don't try to, I don't twist people's arms to do solo pasture.
00:13:18 --> 00:13:21 There is enough interest in this that I don't have to try to go
00:13:21 --> 00:13:22 out there and convince people.
00:13:23 --> 00:13:26 found that even though there's really not a whole lot of Silva Pasture
00:13:26 --> 00:13:31 being done in the United States, like hardly any projects annually.
00:13:32 --> 00:13:36 That if you can make it simple for folks and say, look, we'll do this for you.
00:13:36 --> 00:13:39 We'll, we will go out and we'll find the funding as well.
00:13:40 --> 00:13:41 We will do the planting.
00:13:41 --> 00:13:43 We will source all the trees.
00:13:43 --> 00:13:45 We'll make this as simple as possible for you.
00:13:45 --> 00:13:47 There's a whole bunch of people where a silver pasture just
00:13:47 --> 00:13:49 makes sense for their operation.
00:13:49 --> 00:13:51 They've wanted do this for a long time anyway.
00:13:51 --> 00:13:53 They've just never gotten around to it.
00:13:53 --> 00:13:58 And I think that's one of the most common things is, look, there's always
00:13:58 --> 00:14:00 a million things that need to be done on the farm, and most of the things
00:14:00 --> 00:14:03 needed to be done five years ago and they're starting to fall apart.
00:14:04 --> 00:14:04 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: we're
00:14:05 --> 00:14:08 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: like that to-do list is pretty like keeps you
00:14:08 --> 00:14:14 hopping without having to put the time and the energy and the money into investing
00:14:14 --> 00:14:18 in trees that aren't going to give you any yield for let's say five years.
00:14:19 --> 00:14:23 So that's where if we can come in and we can do it for them, it, it makes it easy.
00:14:23 --> 00:14:26 And there's a whole bunch of people, like the people
00:14:26 --> 00:14:28 listening here that are already.
00:14:29 --> 00:14:36 This on this path of going for grass fed regenerative, and they
00:14:36 --> 00:14:38 get it, it makes sense to them.
00:14:38 --> 00:14:43 Someone who's, who's running a CAFO operation, I'm not gonna be talking to
00:14:43 --> 00:14:45 them about let's doing, let's do Silva
00:14:45 --> 00:14:46 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh, right.
00:14:46 --> 00:14:48 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: there, there are too, there are too many steps
00:14:48 --> 00:14:52 away from from this making sense for them.
00:14:52 --> 00:14:56 So really, I'm just talking to folks who, who are right there,
00:14:56 --> 00:14:59 who, and who get it, and where this would make sense on their farm.
00:14:59 --> 00:15:04 So it's typically not hard to convince people to look into Silver Pasture.
00:15:05 --> 00:15:05 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Yeah.
00:15:06 --> 00:15:09 I, I would suspect it not, because as I mentioned earlier to you,
00:15:09 --> 00:15:13 civil pastor has brought up a lot in conversations that I hear.
00:15:14 --> 00:15:16 For, for us, we.
00:15:16 --> 00:15:20 We attempted, I guess, about 10 years ago to plant, I don't
00:15:20 --> 00:15:21 know, a hundred pecan trees.
00:15:22 --> 00:15:28 and then we did a very poor job of protecting them and getting them started,
00:15:29 --> 00:15:30 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: You're not one.
00:15:30 --> 00:15:32 That's probably the rule rather
00:15:32 --> 00:15:33 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: oh yeah,
00:15:33 --> 00:15:34 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: for,
00:15:34 --> 00:15:35 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: zero out of that.
00:15:36 --> 00:15:40 We got some pictures of us actually doing it, but, and, and we've talked since then.
00:15:40 --> 00:15:43 Oh, we're gonna do that again and we're gonna do a better job.
00:15:43 --> 00:15:44 we are.
00:15:44 --> 00:15:46 I, I actually think we did that in 17.
00:15:47 --> 00:15:49 So here we are eight years later and we haven't done anything.
00:15:49 --> 00:15:53 We had, we did graph some trees, but, if we would've got those,
00:15:53 --> 00:15:56 we'd been so far ahead, we need to go ahead and do something again.
00:15:57 --> 00:15:59 Try to get on some kind of path.
00:15:59 --> 00:15:59 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: Yep.
00:16:00 --> 00:16:04 I, I would say that your experience is the rule rather than the exception.
00:16:04 --> 00:16:08 We've worked with quite a few farmers who have done some small plantings and
00:16:08 --> 00:16:10 typically they don't work out so well.
00:16:10 --> 00:16:13 Planting trees even in a stream buffer.
00:16:13 --> 00:16:17 Is challenging enough because you've got the vegetation, you've got deer,
00:16:17 --> 00:16:23 you've got voles rodents, rabbits all kinds of things, droughts, like, there's
00:16:23 --> 00:16:27 all kinds of things that are going to conspire to kill your trees, but then
00:16:27 --> 00:16:32 you put 'em into a grazing situation and then you add like large ruminants
00:16:32 --> 00:16:36 typically to all, and you still have all those other things to deal with.
00:16:37 --> 00:16:43 And it, it's just a, it's a challenging thing and we've, we're fortunate
00:16:43 --> 00:16:47 enough that we've been able to work with enough farmers and, and
00:16:47 --> 00:16:49 try this numerous times by now.
00:16:50 --> 00:16:52 so by now it's 2025.
00:16:52 --> 00:16:54 We've been at this for about five years.
00:16:54 --> 00:16:55 Seriously.
00:16:55 --> 00:16:59 Been at this for about five years and we've, we've kind of figured it out.
00:16:59 --> 00:17:05 We kind of have figured out the protection methods, the the protocols that one
00:17:05 --> 00:17:08 should put in place where we're getting.
00:17:09 --> 00:17:12 90% success rates on our trees.
00:17:13 --> 00:17:14 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh yes.
00:17:15 --> 00:17:21 With, with that you mentioned a whole host of things that's working against you.
00:17:21 --> 00:17:27 In our context, we added she and goats to the enterprise to, to the equation
00:17:27 --> 00:17:29 too, which caused us some issues.
00:17:29 --> 00:17:29 In fact,
00:17:30 --> 00:17:34 year we went to graph pecan trees, thinking we would just go, we've
00:17:34 --> 00:17:38 got some native groves that just where they've grown and what we're
00:17:38 --> 00:17:40 thinking, we need to manage 'em better.
00:17:40 --> 00:17:45 So we go out to graph trees or we go out to see what trees we have to graph.
00:17:45 --> 00:17:48 We'd already decide we probably can do about a dozen trees.
00:17:49 --> 00:17:52 We go out there and we run into a problem.
00:17:53 --> 00:17:59 We've been running sheep and goats for about 10 years and what it's done that we
00:17:59 --> 00:18:03 had never really paid attention to was.
00:18:03 --> 00:18:06 We don't, didn't have any young growth to graph
00:18:07 --> 00:18:07 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: Oh
00:18:08 --> 00:18:11 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: everything was getting too old, so, so last year
00:18:11 --> 00:18:15 I tried to save some and then the cows went and tore up some, but I
00:18:15 --> 00:18:19 tried to keep the sheep and goats away from some so I can get 'em growing.
00:18:19 --> 00:18:21 I'm might have to do a better job about that.
00:18:21 --> 00:18:23 So that's probably a discussion we should have as well.
00:18:24 --> 00:18:25 But yeah.
00:18:25 --> 00:18:29 W when you talk to farmers and they've tried something little and it just
00:18:29 --> 00:18:33 doesn't work, what are the main things that caused it not to work?
00:18:34 --> 00:18:36 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: I think the, the, probably the
00:18:36 --> 00:18:41 biggest challenge for folks is protecting the trees from cattle
00:18:41 --> 00:18:42 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh yeah.
00:18:42 --> 00:18:46 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: and then the, the, the protection methods
00:18:46 --> 00:18:52 that people use can often lead towards other problems, like, trees being choked
00:18:52 --> 00:18:54 out by competing vegetation or rodents.
00:18:54 --> 00:18:55 And I'll explain.
00:18:55 --> 00:18:55 So.
00:18:55 --> 00:18:56 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Okay.
00:18:57 --> 00:19:00 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: The, the standard method I would
00:19:00 --> 00:19:05 say for keeping cattle off of trees is to fence out a big area.
00:19:06 --> 00:19:06 So
00:19:07 --> 00:19:12 a row of trees and you have a fence, four or five feet on either side of
00:19:12 --> 00:19:16 that row of trees, protecting those trees from the cattle getting in
00:19:16 --> 00:19:18 and, and browsing on those trees.
00:19:18 --> 00:19:22 So what you're doing is you're keeping the cattle out, but you
00:19:22 --> 00:19:27 are also creating a large area where grass has grown and grow up.
00:19:27 --> 00:19:27 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Mm-hmm.
00:19:28 --> 00:19:30 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: so you're losing productivity
00:19:30 --> 00:19:35 and you're gaining a chore of weed whacking or brush hogging.
00:19:35 --> 00:19:38 But normally it's weed whacking because you can't get in there
00:19:38 --> 00:19:41 with a brush hog if you have, if it's a permanent or semi-permanent
00:19:41 --> 00:19:43 wire that you have up there.
00:19:44 --> 00:19:46 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Actually, Austin, I wanna stop you right there.
00:19:46 --> 00:19:50 Are you spying on me because I thought you were in Pennsylvania, but this sounds
00:19:50 --> 00:19:51 very familiar to what we've done before.
00:19:52 --> 00:19:54 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: It's not the first time it's happened.
00:19:55 --> 00:19:58 So the grass grows up and you gotta weed whack it.
00:19:58 --> 00:20:00 Well, who's gonna weed whack that in the middle of the summer?
00:20:00 --> 00:20:02 Ain't nobody gonna do it.
00:20:02 --> 00:20:05 You start out, when you plant it and say, I'm gonna weed whack that
00:20:05 --> 00:20:07 when the time comes and no one does.
00:20:07 --> 00:20:12 And, and you have these trees and usually they're, they're smaller trees
00:20:12 --> 00:20:12 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Right,
00:20:13 --> 00:20:15 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: there's not a whole lot of money on a farm.
00:20:15 --> 00:20:21 So you put the small trees in and, and in March when you plant them and
00:20:21 --> 00:20:23 the grass is dormant, it looks great.
00:20:23 --> 00:20:25 'cause those trees are sticking up, they're two
00:20:25 --> 00:20:25 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: right.
00:20:26 --> 00:20:26 You could see ' em.
00:20:27 --> 00:20:29 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: the grass is six inches tall.
00:20:29 --> 00:20:32 And you're like, I'm, there's no way I'm gonna lose these trees.
00:20:32 --> 00:20:37 And then come August, when the grass is five feet tall, you've
00:20:37 --> 00:20:39 lost your trees completely.
00:20:39 --> 00:20:43 So the trees are getting outcompeted by these forages.
00:20:44 --> 00:20:46 And that alone might kill them.
00:20:46 --> 00:20:50 not enough you're creating a great habitat for rodents.
00:20:50 --> 00:20:55 And in our area, voles kill more trees than cattle do.
00:20:56 --> 00:20:58 So if your area has voles.
00:20:58 --> 00:21:03 They're like a small mouse that lives in, lives in the grasses.
00:21:04 --> 00:21:06 And they love to chew on trees, especially during the winter.
00:21:06 --> 00:21:12 They love to chew on the bark of trees, and they will kill so
00:21:12 --> 00:21:14 many trees and then they'll laugh at you while they're doing it.
00:21:15 --> 00:21:16 So that's our republic enemy.
00:21:16 --> 00:21:19 Number one is voles for our area at least.
00:21:19 --> 00:21:22 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: and, and we are within the range of bowls.
00:21:22 --> 00:21:24 I'm not sure.
00:21:24 --> 00:21:28 I'm not familiar with them, so that's where I need to be more observant.
00:21:28 --> 00:21:32 But it looks like it, it heads east to you west a little ways the
00:21:32 --> 00:21:37 range west into Colorado, Wyoming, north, into the edge of Canada.
00:21:37 --> 00:21:41 It also looks like if you go very much south of me, it's not a problem
00:21:41 --> 00:21:41 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: Okay.
00:21:42 --> 00:21:46 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: based upon on this one result from Google.
00:21:46 --> 00:21:46 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: Okay.
00:21:46 --> 00:21:49 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: So I could be completely wrong about this as well.
00:21:49 --> 00:21:51 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: who say like, they don't have vols
00:21:51 --> 00:21:54 but a large portion of the country is gonna have 'em, and they're gonna
00:21:54 --> 00:21:58 be a, a, a very significant factor that you don't even think about it.
00:21:58 --> 00:21:59 'cause normally you don't see them.
00:22:00 --> 00:22:00 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh yeah.
00:22:01 --> 00:22:03 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: So the, I would say that's probably
00:22:03 --> 00:22:07 the, the biggest contributor to to failure of tree plantings.
00:22:08 --> 00:22:12 So it, I've seen people plant trees outside of their fences, like alongside
00:22:12 --> 00:22:16 the, alongside the fence around the house, around the farm or whatever it is.
00:22:16 --> 00:22:20 And generally people have good success there because they can mow up along it.
00:22:21 --> 00:22:24 They don't have they don't have cattle to project it from.
00:22:25 --> 00:22:29 And so long as you can keep the vegetation down, the tree has a
00:22:29 --> 00:22:31 good, has a good chance, especially if you can mulch around it.
00:22:32 --> 00:22:34 Keep the vegetation down, the tree's gonna do well.
00:22:34 --> 00:22:41 It's just getting those trees in in an active pasture that is challenging
00:22:42 --> 00:22:44 when you use the, the fence out method.
00:22:45 --> 00:22:46 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh yeah.
00:22:46 --> 00:22:48 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: for cages as well.
00:22:48 --> 00:22:53 So if people use cages to individually protect trees, you're kinda gr getting the
00:22:53 --> 00:22:58 same conditions where a lot of forages are gonna grow up inside of that cage and are
00:22:58 --> 00:23:00 gonna create a great habitat for rodents.
00:23:01 --> 00:23:01 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Okay.
00:23:01 --> 00:23:04 And that's what I was thinking with these trees that I'm trying
00:23:04 --> 00:23:06 to protect my, my first thought.
00:23:07 --> 00:23:12 The first thing I did last spring after I figured out we didn't have any young pecan
00:23:12 --> 00:23:19 trees was I identified two pastures where I had pecan trees sprouted, and I didn't
00:23:19 --> 00:23:21 let the sheep and goats in those areas.
00:23:22 --> 00:23:25 The cattle still had access and caused me enough damage.
00:23:25 --> 00:23:27 They caused me more damage than I thought.
00:23:27 --> 00:23:32 So my thought this year was I was just gonna get like a goat panel and make
00:23:32 --> 00:23:36 a cage around it, but it doesn't sound like that's a really good solution.
00:23:36 --> 00:23:38 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: So here's what I would do with cages.
00:23:39 --> 00:23:39 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Okay.
00:23:39 --> 00:23:42 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: Is I think cages in and of
00:23:42 --> 00:23:47 themselves, have that issue of, of forages growing up inside of 'em.
00:23:47 --> 00:23:53 But if you were to mulch the tree really, really heavily let's say three, four
00:23:53 --> 00:23:54 inches of mulch, the more the merrier.
00:23:55 --> 00:23:55 And then you
00:23:56 --> 00:24:00 around that such that the, the area inside the cage is all mulched.
00:24:01 --> 00:24:03 actually gonna be great for the tree, I think.
00:24:04 --> 00:24:04 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh, okay.
00:24:04 --> 00:24:06 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: it's gonna, the mulch is gonna
00:24:06 --> 00:24:08 conserve moisture, so it's gonna be a benefit to the tree.
00:24:08 --> 00:24:11 It's, you're not gonna get vegetation coming up and competing
00:24:11 --> 00:24:12 with the tree in that area.
00:24:13 --> 00:24:14 So that's how I would do it.
00:24:15 --> 00:24:18 Is, like you said, a, a goat panel, a cattle panel, whatever
00:24:18 --> 00:24:21 it is, whatever makes sense for the livestock that you're running.
00:24:21 --> 00:24:26 And but you need the mulch as, as part of that, or I just, or you're
00:24:26 --> 00:24:29 just gonna get too much competing vegetation going on there with the tree.
00:24:30 --> 00:24:32 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: So, so that's a pretty simple way
00:24:32 --> 00:24:34 to make a cage more effective.
00:24:34 --> 00:24:40 Adding that mulch is that mulch something you need to go back and reapply
00:24:40 --> 00:24:43 six months or yearly or more often.
00:24:44 --> 00:24:44 Oh, okay.
00:24:44 --> 00:24:45 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: typically don't.
00:24:45 --> 00:24:51 On our plantings, our protocol when we do our plantings is we put 10 gallons, so two
00:24:51 --> 00:24:54 five gallon buckets of wood chip mulch.
00:24:54 --> 00:24:55 And this is just straight up wood chips.
00:24:55 --> 00:24:59 Don't, don't buy this stuff from the garden center, just whatever
00:24:59 --> 00:25:00 wood chips that you have access to.
00:25:01 --> 00:25:02 typically
00:25:02 --> 00:25:04 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: You find them chipping trees down your road.
00:25:05 --> 00:25:05 Go.
00:25:05 --> 00:25:06 Go grab some.
00:25:06 --> 00:25:08 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: Exactly, exactly.
00:25:08 --> 00:25:12 So 10 gallons of wood chips around the base of every tree is what we do.
00:25:12 --> 00:25:13 We do it once.
00:25:14 --> 00:25:17 It would be better for the tree if we came back and reapplied it.
00:25:17 --> 00:25:22 But that one time is the most critical because it's when you first
00:25:22 --> 00:25:24 transplant the trees that they're most.
00:25:25 --> 00:25:30 Susceptible to, to to drought drought in particular, and also
00:25:31 --> 00:25:32 from other forages.
00:25:33 --> 00:25:39 So we found that in our area, the mulch breaks down to where
00:25:39 --> 00:25:41 you have other grasses and stuff.
00:25:41 --> 00:25:45 Coming up through it in a year to two years is typically what it is.
00:25:45 --> 00:25:47 More along the lines of two years typically.
00:25:47 --> 00:25:51 And in that time, the tree has a great start and it has its
00:25:51 --> 00:25:52 roots pretty well established.
00:25:53 --> 00:25:57 So another round would be great, would the tree would love it, but it's not
00:25:57 --> 00:25:59 nearly as critical as that first round
00:26:00 --> 00:26:00 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh yeah.
00:26:01 --> 00:26:01 Oh, okay.
00:26:02 --> 00:26:03 Good to know.
00:26:04 --> 00:26:04 Yeah.
00:26:05 --> 00:26:11 So just continuing on that path a little bit what would be a
00:26:11 --> 00:26:13 better step than a cage and mulch?
00:26:13 --> 00:26:13 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: Yep.
00:26:13 --> 00:26:18 So here is our protocol that we've developed is it starts
00:26:18 --> 00:26:22 a six foot tall plantar tree shelter.
00:26:22 --> 00:26:25 That's the, that's what we kind of figured out works for us, it's worked
00:26:25 --> 00:26:27 for everyone that we've worked with too.
00:26:28 --> 00:26:30 So, so let's break that down.
00:26:30 --> 00:26:36 The plantar tree shelter, it's a six foot tall tube and a seven foot tall stake.
00:26:36 --> 00:26:39 You drive it in a foot and there you go.
00:26:39 --> 00:26:43 The, the stake is a fiberglass steak, it's an electrical insulator
00:26:45 --> 00:26:47 and it has some good flexibility.
00:26:47 --> 00:26:52 So the nice thing about it is cattle can rub up on it a little bit and it'll flex.
00:26:53 --> 00:26:55 You don't want cattle to rub up on it too much, and that's where
00:26:55 --> 00:26:56 the electric fencing comes in.
00:26:57 --> 00:27:02 So you protect the tree shelter from cattle with electric fencing.
00:27:03 --> 00:27:04 typically we're using.
00:27:05 --> 00:27:07 of polywire and aluminum wire.
00:27:07 --> 00:27:08 The two, two
00:27:08 --> 00:27:15 ways that we do it, one is run a single strand along a row of trees
00:27:15 --> 00:27:20 at, at the height that you would put a paddock division strand, at
00:27:20 --> 00:27:22 knee height or whatever that is.
00:27:23 --> 00:27:24 So that's, that's simple.
00:27:24 --> 00:27:30 Very simple means of, of protecting the trees and also defining a
00:27:30 --> 00:27:31 paddock if you wanna do it that way.
00:27:32 --> 00:27:35 The other thing that we're doing, and we're doing more and more of this now,
00:27:35 --> 00:27:42 is we're doing what's called an overpass, where we are running the polywire at six
00:27:42 --> 00:27:45 feet high along these row of trees so that
00:27:45 --> 00:27:50 can freely move underneath and get through this row of trees.
00:27:51 --> 00:27:56 And then what we do is we attach aluminum wire to that polywire up top
00:27:56 --> 00:27:59 and we wrap that around the tree tube.
00:28:00 --> 00:28:01 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh, okay.
00:28:01 --> 00:28:03 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: the tree tube itself, the exterior
00:28:03 --> 00:28:05 of the tree tube is electrified.
00:28:05 --> 00:28:09 So if cattle rub up on it, they'll quickly figure out that they shouldn't anymore.
00:28:11 --> 00:28:14 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: So that leaves you a, a more permanent
00:28:14 --> 00:28:19 situation than if you're making a paddock and, and running it and
00:28:20 --> 00:28:21 your tree.
00:28:21 --> 00:28:25 It allows you to go perpendicular to your trees and multiple day moves.
00:28:26 --> 00:28:27 They're still good.
00:28:27 --> 00:28:32 But because you got that semi-permanent or top wire with the
00:28:32 --> 00:28:33 aluminum wire.
00:28:33 --> 00:28:36 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: It gives the operators much more flexibility of
00:28:36 --> 00:28:39 run their operation, how they make their paddocks, how big
00:28:39 --> 00:28:40 they make their paddocks.
00:28:40 --> 00:28:42 So that's why we're doing a lot more of that anymore.
00:28:43 --> 00:28:47 I should also say about the height of the tree, of the tree shelters.
00:28:47 --> 00:28:50 So six foot is what we recommend for cattle.
00:28:50 --> 00:28:53 If you've only got sheep, five foot should do.
00:28:54 --> 00:28:54 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh, okay.
00:28:55 --> 00:28:58 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: would go with six foot just because they're ory.
00:29:00 --> 00:29:00 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Yes, they are.
00:29:00 --> 00:29:01 Yeah.
00:29:02 --> 00:29:02 Yeah.
00:29:05 --> 00:29:09 Since we're going down this path of getting them started, how long, how
00:29:09 --> 00:29:11 long do they stay in that tree shelter?
00:29:12 --> 00:29:13 What are you looking at there?
00:29:15 --> 00:29:17 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: Let's circle back around to that.
00:29:17 --> 00:29:18 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh, okay.
00:29:18 --> 00:29:19 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: to finish our protocols first.
00:29:19 --> 00:29:20 So,
00:29:20 --> 00:29:21 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh, okay.
00:29:21 --> 00:29:24 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: so once we have the tree shelter on, we'll want to
00:29:24 --> 00:29:27 put a volgar around the base of the tree.
00:29:27 --> 00:29:31 So the tree shelter itself is around four inches in diameter,
00:29:32 --> 00:29:35 which the tree to grow somewhat inside of that tree tube.
00:29:35 --> 00:29:40 The downside is it's a really nice place for a vol to hang out, a vol or some
00:29:40 --> 00:29:42 like a mouse to hang out inside of there.
00:29:43 --> 00:29:45 And so what we do is we put.
00:29:46 --> 00:29:48 A vol guard around the base of the tree.
00:29:48 --> 00:29:53 Basically it's just a spiral guard that's gonna stick pretty close to the tree
00:29:53 --> 00:29:59 trunk so that there's no room for a vol to get in there and, and girdle the tree.
00:29:59 --> 00:30:02 They can't access the tree trunk itself.
00:30:02 --> 00:30:06 So that's our insurance policy against volts.
00:30:06 --> 00:30:07 So just a
00:30:07 --> 00:30:07 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh, okay.
00:30:08 --> 00:30:10 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: We've used a vinyl spiral guard
00:30:10 --> 00:30:12 that they often sell for Buck Rub.
00:30:12 --> 00:30:13 That's one product that we've used.
00:30:14 --> 00:30:19 Right now we're shifting over to using a, a mesh plastic mesh wrap that
00:30:19 --> 00:30:22 planter makes, and we're just cutting 'em down to about eight inches long.
00:30:23 --> 00:30:26 So that's what we do around the tree to prevent vol damage.
00:30:26 --> 00:30:29 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Is that into the ground or is that just at surface?
00:30:29 --> 00:30:30 At level.
00:30:30 --> 00:30:32 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: into the ground a little bit, that's great.
00:30:32 --> 00:30:35 Oftentimes they don't really go into the ground very well.
00:30:35 --> 00:30:36 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh, yeah.
00:30:36 --> 00:30:37 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: I.
00:30:37 --> 00:30:42 What we do about below ground vol activity is when we do maintenance,
00:30:42 --> 00:30:46 we will put vol repellent in there.
00:30:46 --> 00:30:50 And usually, so we, we have a blend of castor oil and blood
00:30:50 --> 00:30:52 meal that we put in there.
00:30:53 --> 00:30:56 I can't say that we've scientifically tested this.
00:30:56 --> 00:31:00 We haven't done a controlled study, but it's a cheap insurance policy if
00:31:00 --> 00:31:05 we're already going around and checking on all these trees in the fall, when
00:31:05 --> 00:31:10 voles are about to go into dormancy and and they're wanting to find a
00:31:10 --> 00:31:15 place to, to ride out the winter we dropped this this combination and, and
00:31:15 --> 00:31:21 the castor oil specifically is sold commercially for below ground rodents
00:31:21 --> 00:31:22 like moles and that kind of thing.
00:31:23 --> 00:31:23 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh, okay.
00:31:24 --> 00:31:26 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: So we're, we're banking on the, the
00:31:26 --> 00:31:29 volgar protecting from above ground.
00:31:30 --> 00:31:35 Girdling and then the castor oil and blood meal combination deterring
00:31:35 --> 00:31:37 from below ground girdling.
00:31:39 --> 00:31:42 So, as you can see, voles are a real thing.
00:31:42 --> 00:31:47 We've had to we've had to come up with creative means of keeping them away, but
00:31:47 --> 00:31:48 thankfully both of 'em are really cheap.
00:31:49 --> 00:31:54 And then what we do is we will mulch like I said, 10 gallons worth of wood
00:31:54 --> 00:31:55 chip mulch and the more the merrier.
00:31:55 --> 00:31:59 So 10 gallons is just what we have as our company policy for whatever jobs that
00:31:59 --> 00:32:00 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh yeah.
00:32:00 --> 00:32:01 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: If you're a farmer and you
00:32:01 --> 00:32:03 have access to a whole bunch of mulch, just layer it on there.
00:32:03 --> 00:32:07 The trees will appreciate it around, so we'll do that around the base of
00:32:07 --> 00:32:09 the tree because there's a tube there.
00:32:09 --> 00:32:15 So, some folks know to be about putting a volcano of mulch up against the tree.
00:32:15 --> 00:32:16 'cause we
00:32:16 --> 00:32:20 to ' we don't want a whole bunch of moisture in contact with the,
00:32:20 --> 00:32:21 the bark, the trunk of the tree.
00:32:22 --> 00:32:26 But because there is a tree tube around the tree, you can put a whole
00:32:26 --> 00:32:28 big volcano right up against the base.
00:32:28 --> 00:32:30 That tree tube and it's perfectly fine.
00:32:31 --> 00:32:31 And
00:32:31 --> 00:32:32 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh yes.
00:32:32 --> 00:32:33 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: it, you know, there's more mulch
00:32:33 --> 00:32:37 right there around the closest to the tree where it matters the most.
00:32:37 --> 00:32:43 So that's how we do the mulch, and that's that in the basis of our protocols that
00:32:43 --> 00:32:46 we use on just about all of our planting.
00:32:46 --> 00:32:50 So it protects, you're protecting from cattle, you're protecting from
00:32:50 --> 00:32:55 deer, you're protecting from voles and you're protecting from drought
00:32:55 --> 00:32:59 and and weed competition as well.
00:32:59 --> 00:33:01 So all of your bases are covered.
00:33:01 --> 00:33:04 You are, you're definitely investing more per tree.
00:33:04 --> 00:33:05 There's no way
00:33:05 --> 00:33:05 it.
00:33:05 --> 00:33:09 Like what, what we do as a philosophy for our company is we
00:33:09 --> 00:33:10 want a really high success rate.
00:33:11 --> 00:33:14 there are folks out there, there's philosophies where you put out
00:33:14 --> 00:33:18 a whole bunch of trees and you know that it's a numbers game and
00:33:18 --> 00:33:20 just a lot of 'em won't make it.
00:33:21 --> 00:33:24 We try to go the opposite route where we say.
00:33:24 --> 00:33:28 If I want to plant one tree and I want to get one tree and I'm going
00:33:28 --> 00:33:34 to, I know exactly what I need to do in order to get that tree to survive.
00:33:34 --> 00:33:36 So long as I'm starting with a, a good tree,
00:33:37 --> 00:33:37 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Right.
00:33:38 --> 00:33:39 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: and I provide it everything that
00:33:39 --> 00:33:41 it needs, it's gonna survive.
00:33:42 --> 00:33:44 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: I think probably we leaned towards that.
00:33:44 --> 00:33:47 We were putting out a whole bunch of trees and thought,
00:33:47 --> 00:33:48 well, we hope they'll survive.
00:33:49 --> 00:33:53 I much would've rather, we did a little bit more proactive then,
00:33:53 --> 00:33:54 so we did have them survive.
00:33:54 --> 00:33:58 That'd been really good on, on the trees.
00:33:58 --> 00:34:00 This tube, you're putting six foot tall.
00:34:01 --> 00:34:01 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: Yes.
00:34:02 --> 00:34:06 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Is, are you planting saplings or trees that's already
00:34:06 --> 00:34:10 that tall or does that still work if you, you plant smaller ones because I think the
00:34:10 --> 00:34:13 pecan trees we got were like 18 inches,
00:34:13 --> 00:34:14 two foot.
00:34:14 --> 00:34:14 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: Yep.
00:34:14 --> 00:34:18 The standard is to use small trees like, like you were saying, 18 inches.
00:34:18 --> 00:34:22 They're used all the time in conservation plantings where people are putting 12
00:34:22 --> 00:34:25 inch trees inside of those tubes, and
00:34:26 --> 00:34:26 fine.
00:34:26 --> 00:34:31 There is, I will say that trees do not grow as well inside of
00:34:31 --> 00:34:33 tubes as they do out in the open.
00:34:35 --> 00:34:38 they're constrained, they're constricted to that four inches
00:34:38 --> 00:34:40 of diameter or whatever it is.
00:34:40 --> 00:34:44 They will grow taller faster, but
00:34:45 --> 00:34:48 that they're healthier because they're out of balance, because they
00:34:48 --> 00:34:50 haven't been able to branch out.
00:34:50 --> 00:34:51 So
00:34:51 --> 00:34:54 like tree shelter manufacturers will tell you, Hey, these trees
00:34:54 --> 00:34:56 grow faster inside of a tree tube.
00:34:57 --> 00:35:01 They grow taller, but they are, they're significantly out of balance.
00:35:01 --> 00:35:03 And by the time that they get out, they're tall and lanky.
00:35:04 --> 00:35:09 And then they need to, they need a couple years to get the right ratio
00:35:09 --> 00:35:11 of, of height to girth of that tree.
00:35:12 --> 00:35:13 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: I struggled with the same thing,
00:35:13 --> 00:35:14 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: Yep.
00:35:14 --> 00:35:14 Yep.
00:35:15 --> 00:35:20 So all things, because all things are being equal, I would rather
00:35:20 --> 00:35:22 my trees grow outside of a tube.
00:35:23 --> 00:35:27 because we're getting these trees established in challenging environments
00:35:27 --> 00:35:29 with deer, with cattle, all those things,
00:35:30 --> 00:35:30 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: right?
00:35:30 --> 00:35:32 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: the tubes come in so handy.
00:35:33 --> 00:35:38 I will say that we are, as a company, moving towards planting taller and
00:35:38 --> 00:35:40 taller trees inside of our tree shelters
00:35:41 --> 00:35:42 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh, yes.
00:35:42 --> 00:35:43 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: different reasons.
00:35:44 --> 00:35:47 What it comes down to mostly is we can take much better
00:35:47 --> 00:35:50 care of a tree in a nursery.
00:35:50 --> 00:35:54 And more economically too than you can in a pasture setting.
00:35:55 --> 00:35:56 So in a nursery,
00:35:56 --> 00:36:02 got 20 trees in one, one small field.
00:36:02 --> 00:36:02 Right?
00:36:02 --> 00:36:04 And we can take very good care of those trees.
00:36:05 --> 00:36:09 We can take, we can keep all the animals, all the wildlife away from them.
00:36:09 --> 00:36:12 We can grow them in such a way that they, they, they're growing out in the open.
00:36:12 --> 00:36:17 They have they side branch, they have a good good size, good diameter
00:36:18 --> 00:36:19 and ratio with their, their height.
00:36:20 --> 00:36:23 So that when we put them in a tree shelter, they're
00:36:23 --> 00:36:24 actually much more balanced.
00:36:25 --> 00:36:27 And there's several years ahead.
00:36:27 --> 00:36:33 I figure in a nursery we can grow a tree much faster than you can
00:36:33 --> 00:36:36 in a pasture, just because we can control a lot more of these factors.
00:36:37 --> 00:36:38 I think we can
00:36:38 --> 00:36:44 a two years headstart by planting a tree that's six foot tall.
00:36:45 --> 00:36:46 It's gonna be more uniform.
00:36:46 --> 00:36:50 It's gonna give you the results that you want much quicker and more uniformly
00:36:51 --> 00:36:56 than if we're planting trees that are 12 inches, 18 inches, whatever it is.
00:36:57 --> 00:37:02 And you're putting more money into the tree, but you're saving money
00:37:02 --> 00:37:05 on aftercare and you're getting to your goal, whether that's shade
00:37:05 --> 00:37:08 or pods or fruit, much quicker.
00:37:09 --> 00:37:12 I believe that if we, there's a certain point at which you can also
00:37:12 --> 00:37:14 save money on the tree shelter.
00:37:14 --> 00:37:19 Like if you put out a tree that's eight foot tall then you can start to save on
00:37:19 --> 00:37:22 the tree shelter because you probably don't need a sta, you don't need a steak.
00:37:23 --> 00:37:27 You can probably get away with not having a tree tube.
00:37:28 --> 00:37:29 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh, we got.
00:37:29 --> 00:37:30 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: to experiment with this of
00:37:30 --> 00:37:31 how exactly we would do it.
00:37:31 --> 00:37:35 And it's gonna depend on the, the producer or their context, but there'd be many
00:37:35 --> 00:37:41 times where if you put out a six foot tall tree or an eight foot tall tree, you can
00:37:41 --> 00:37:43 probably save money on the tree shelter.
00:37:43 --> 00:37:48 And so you're even on that additional investment in the tree.
00:37:48 --> 00:37:49 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh, yes.
00:37:49 --> 00:37:55 Yeah, and and I know anytime you talk to farmers, I know with our case we're
00:37:55 --> 00:37:58 trying to do it cheaply and get a lot in.
00:37:58 --> 00:38:00 Of course, hindsight's 2020.
00:38:00 --> 00:38:06 If we'd gone in with that same amount of money and did a few trees, whether
00:38:06 --> 00:38:10 that was even one and we had one survive, that'd be one more than
00:38:10 --> 00:38:11 what we got out of all that work.
00:38:11 --> 00:38:12 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: Yep.
00:38:12 --> 00:38:15 you take that money that you would've put into a hundred trees and you
00:38:15 --> 00:38:19 put into 10 trees or 20 trees and you, you save a lot of time.
00:38:20 --> 00:38:23 A lot of a lot of money on all of that.
00:38:23 --> 00:38:26 And you, you just know that you're gonna succeed.
00:38:26 --> 00:38:32 I, I think most people would, would much rather have a, quite a guarantee,
00:38:32 --> 00:38:35 but a really, really, really high chance that what they're doing is
00:38:36 --> 00:38:36 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: yeah.
00:38:36 --> 00:38:38 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: and know that that's gonna work
00:38:38 --> 00:38:40 rather than rolling the dice.
00:38:42 --> 00:38:42 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Yeah.
00:38:42 --> 00:38:43 I, I agree.
00:38:44 --> 00:38:48 When, when we think about, did you get everything covered on y'all's
00:38:48 --> 00:38:50 method and what you do there.
00:38:50 --> 00:38:50 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: we
00:38:51 --> 00:38:55 you were asking about how long to keep those tree shelters
00:38:55 --> 00:38:55 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Right.
00:38:56 --> 00:38:59 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: So, it's ended up being longer
00:38:59 --> 00:39:01 than what we had anticipated.
00:39:02 --> 00:39:03 So initially
00:39:03 --> 00:39:07 we thought it was gonna be, say, two or three years for the steak and then
00:39:07 --> 00:39:14 soon after, for the, for the tree tube, what we've now figured is the, the tree
00:39:14 --> 00:39:19 tube we're, we're using as a single use product or we're figuring it's
00:39:19 --> 00:39:20 use product.
00:39:20 --> 00:39:24 It's probably gonna be on for five years or so.
00:39:24 --> 00:39:25 It all depends on
00:39:26 --> 00:39:28 of growth of the tree.
00:39:28 --> 00:39:33 So our oldest project now is going into, its fifth, no, sorry, sixth year.
00:39:34 --> 00:39:37 And we have improved our methods.
00:39:37 --> 00:39:39 Significantly since that one.
00:39:39 --> 00:39:45 So I think it'll be, it'll be interesting to see how fast we can grow our trees
00:39:45 --> 00:39:50 and how quickly we can re remove our tree tubes with projects where we
00:39:50 --> 00:39:52 have these more updated protocols.
00:39:53 --> 00:39:55 But I'd say figure on like five years.
00:39:56 --> 00:40:00 If it's all fast growing trees like your black locust or hybrid poplars,
00:40:00 --> 00:40:02 those can probably be removed in.
00:40:02 --> 00:40:04 Two years, three years.
00:40:04 --> 00:40:09 The challenge is when you have a row of trees, when you've got some big,
00:40:09 --> 00:40:14 fast growing trees, and then you have some slower growing trees in there.
00:40:14 --> 00:40:18 Let's say a persimmon or an oak or a hickory that's just kind
00:40:18 --> 00:40:22 of struggling to get established and it's new, it's new home.
00:40:23 --> 00:40:26 Most of those are tap rooted species, so they put a lot of
00:40:26 --> 00:40:30 energy into that taproot, and they're very slow to put vertical
00:40:30 --> 00:40:32 energy into their vertical growth.
00:40:32 --> 00:40:36 So they just take a while longer to grow and get, get to be the size
00:40:36 --> 00:40:38 where you can remove that tree tube.
00:40:38 --> 00:40:43 So you might be have a case where your, your hybrid poplar is already.
00:40:44 --> 00:40:47 Eight inches in diameter and your persimmon is still
00:40:47 --> 00:40:49 only two inches in diameter.
00:40:49 --> 00:40:50 You still need
00:40:50 --> 00:40:51 or one inch in diameter.
00:40:52 --> 00:40:57 that's another reason for us as a company to move more towards planting taller
00:40:57 --> 00:41:03 trees because I would rather get my persimmon out there as nice tall trees
00:41:03 --> 00:41:08 or my, my oaks as taller trees and know that, look, I've just gained three
00:41:08 --> 00:41:12 years on those because we're gonna get much, we're gonna get more uniformity
00:41:13 --> 00:41:18 and we're gonna get a faster time to when we can remove those tree shelters.
00:41:18 --> 00:41:24 Another thing that I caution folks about is to don't take the stakes out too early.
00:41:24 --> 00:41:30 I made that mistake where I was trying to reuse steaks 'cause they're about
00:41:30 --> 00:41:32 half the cost of the tree shelter.
00:41:32 --> 00:41:33 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh yes.
00:41:33 --> 00:41:35 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: through it during the winter and I took off.
00:41:35 --> 00:41:40 All of the fiberglass stakes from the trees that I thought were big
00:41:40 --> 00:41:42 enough to remove those stakes.
00:41:43 --> 00:41:48 then when the spring came and the trees leafed out those, those leaves were
00:41:48 --> 00:41:51 all, there were additional weights high up on the tree, and they were
00:41:51 --> 00:41:57 also little tiny sails where when the winds caught them, they pushed them
00:41:57 --> 00:42:00 all and they're all moving in the, they all leaned in the same direction.
00:42:00 --> 00:42:05 So I had to come back and replace hundreds of these stakes,
00:42:05 --> 00:42:06 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh
00:42:06 --> 00:42:08 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: set these trees back up.
00:42:08 --> 00:42:13 And so I've tried not to make that mistake since then and waited until
00:42:13 --> 00:42:15 the tree is definitely large enough.
00:42:15 --> 00:42:20 There is a, it's a very narrow window between when the tree is large enough to
00:42:20 --> 00:42:25 stand up on its own without the stake and when it's big enough to swallow the stake
00:42:25 --> 00:42:27 and just, and circle it with its roots.
00:42:28 --> 00:42:29 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh, yes.
00:42:29 --> 00:42:30 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: that is a challenging thing.
00:42:31 --> 00:42:33 We've messed around with a couple different methods of.
00:42:34 --> 00:42:37 Getting the leverage that you need to yank that, that stake
00:42:37 --> 00:42:40 up from an encircled roots.
00:42:41 --> 00:42:43 We'll have to do a video on that one.
00:42:44 --> 00:42:44 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Yes.
00:42:44 --> 00:42:45 Yeah.
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00:43:42 --> 00:43:42 com
00:43:43 --> 00:43:46 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: when you think about a tree that's big enough to
00:43:46 --> 00:43:52 survive without the, the tree shelter and stake, are you looking at, you want
00:43:52 --> 00:43:56 a certain diameter to, to determine that.
00:43:56 --> 00:43:56 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: Yes.
00:43:57 --> 00:43:57 Yeah.
00:43:57 --> 00:44:01 So this on the stake, really what we want is we just want
00:44:01 --> 00:44:02 the tree to stand up on its own.
00:44:03 --> 00:44:03 Because
00:44:03 --> 00:44:04 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh, okay.
00:44:05 --> 00:44:06 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: when they come out of that tube, like
00:44:06 --> 00:44:11 we were saying earlier, they're very lanky and they're top heavy, so they're
00:44:11 --> 00:44:13 liable to lean over really hard.
00:44:14 --> 00:44:15 on the tube.
00:44:17 --> 00:44:21 We want to protect that tree from browse.
00:44:21 --> 00:44:22 want to protect it
00:44:22 --> 00:44:22 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh yeah.
00:44:23 --> 00:44:24 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: we want to
00:44:24 --> 00:44:25 it from stripping.
00:44:25 --> 00:44:31 So cattle coming through and stripping off the bark can be very dangerous
00:44:31 --> 00:44:34 to young trees that we just spent three years getting them established.
00:44:34 --> 00:44:38 I don't wanna take the tube off too early and have young stock come
00:44:38 --> 00:44:40 through and strip the bark off.
00:44:40 --> 00:44:41 I've, I've
00:44:41 --> 00:44:43 happen more than I would like to.
00:44:44 --> 00:44:46 so what we do now is we open up that tree tube.
00:44:46 --> 00:44:51 So we slice it down the middle and we open it up so that the tree can breathe.
00:44:52 --> 00:44:56 The bark can breathe, we can get more air in there, and we can harden off that
00:44:56 --> 00:44:59 bark before we take the tree tube off.
00:44:59 --> 00:45:02 So we're gonna leave it on for another couple years, even after we've cut it down
00:45:02 --> 00:45:08 the middle and we've opened it up, but we still keep it attached around the tree.
00:45:08 --> 00:45:10 And then we just leave it in place.
00:45:10 --> 00:45:12 There's really not any downside to leaving it in place.
00:45:13 --> 00:45:15 If it's loose, we have found that.
00:45:16 --> 00:45:21 The tree is starting, is growing, such that it's starting to push out the tube.
00:45:21 --> 00:45:27 And then there's so then there is a spot at, at the base of the tree
00:45:27 --> 00:45:32 where the tube is, and it's right in contact with the, the trunk.
00:45:33 --> 00:45:38 And if you get leaves or debris and then water in there, it can start to rot.
00:45:39 --> 00:45:43 particular with black locusts and some with honey locusts as well,
00:45:43 --> 00:45:45 some of our tree species don't seem to have too much issue with it.
00:45:45 --> 00:45:49 Like a hybrid willow, A hybrid poplar probably because they're used to very wet,
00:45:49 --> 00:45:55 high organic matter situations anyway, but the, the, the locust, the black locust
00:45:55 --> 00:46:00 and the honey locust, they were showing more rot at the base in those contexts.
00:46:00 --> 00:46:05 So what we did was we're gonna split up the, the bottom of that tree tube
00:46:05 --> 00:46:10 so that it can breathe and, and that debris and the, the water can escape.
00:46:10 --> 00:46:15 Again, one more reason that we're looking to plant taller trees so
00:46:15 --> 00:46:17 that we don't have that issue.
00:46:17 --> 00:46:19 It's not, it's not the biggest issue.
00:46:19 --> 00:46:21 It can be very well be prevented.
00:46:21 --> 00:46:24 It just takes the right care.
00:46:24 --> 00:46:29 And that's why for our projects, we, we send out a crew twice a year,
00:46:30 --> 00:46:34 every year for the first four years to do maintenance, to do preventative
00:46:34 --> 00:46:36 maintenance, like stuff like that on
00:46:37 --> 00:46:37 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: I.
00:46:37 --> 00:46:38 Oh yes.
00:46:38 --> 00:46:39 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: that we get the, the highest
00:46:39 --> 00:46:41 level of success for our clients.
00:46:43 --> 00:46:44 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh, very good.
00:46:44 --> 00:46:48 Very interesting, very valuable to know this information.
00:46:48 --> 00:46:51 If you're starting your trees, if you've got some trees,
00:46:51 --> 00:46:53 you're getting ready to start.
00:46:53 --> 00:46:55 When should you be planning them?
00:46:57 --> 00:46:58 I guess that's the end of the question.
00:46:58 --> 00:47:01 I actually was going on with it, but that's actually all
00:47:01 --> 00:47:02 I need to ask right there.
00:47:02 --> 00:47:03 When should you be planning them?
00:47:04 --> 00:47:04 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: them?
00:47:04 --> 00:47:05 So.
00:47:05 --> 00:47:12 The best time to plant a tree when the trees are dormant ground is not frozen.
00:47:12 --> 00:47:17 typically will go dormant around November, December, depends on
00:47:17 --> 00:47:18 where in the country you are.
00:47:19 --> 00:47:24 for us, the ground rarely freezes during the winter.
00:47:24 --> 00:47:25 This winter was an exception.
00:47:25 --> 00:47:29 We had like two solid months of ground being frozen,
00:47:30 --> 00:47:30 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh yeah,
00:47:31 --> 00:47:32 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: for us.
00:47:32 --> 00:47:35 But typically we can plant pretty much through the winter.
00:47:35 --> 00:47:38 So it, it depends on where you're at in the country.
00:47:38 --> 00:47:41 Some nurseries, like there's one nursery that we're buying from
00:47:41 --> 00:47:43 that they just started to, to dig.
00:47:43 --> 00:47:46 And we're at the end of March right now as we're recording this,
00:47:46 --> 00:47:51 whereas other nurseries down in Georgia, they've been, they, they
00:47:51 --> 00:47:53 had their stuff dug a long time ago.
00:47:54 --> 00:47:57 So a lot of it depends on where you're sourcing your stuff from.
00:47:59 --> 00:48:03 yeah, it, it can be a little bit challenging too.
00:48:03 --> 00:48:09 To coordinate the, the the purchase, and the arrival of trees.
00:48:09 --> 00:48:13 Depending on where you are in the country and where you're sourcing
00:48:13 --> 00:48:14 your trees from, that can be a
00:48:15 --> 00:48:16 of a headache at times.
00:48:16 --> 00:48:18 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: if you're not able to do it during that
00:48:18 --> 00:48:24 optimal time, is there, is there much drawback to doing it a different time?
00:48:24 --> 00:48:26 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: Don't do it during this, during the summer.
00:48:26 --> 00:48:26 No.
00:48:26 --> 00:48:31 You, you deal with more drought, more hot weather.
00:48:31 --> 00:48:35 A a tree doesn't want to come from being refrigerated, which, if you're going
00:48:35 --> 00:48:40 to get a, a bare root tree a little bit late, it's gonna be in refrigeration
00:48:40 --> 00:48:44 probably from the company that you get it from, and then it's gonna go into,
00:48:44 --> 00:48:49 if you don't want it to go into 90 degrees and sunny for, for weeks on end.
00:48:49 --> 00:48:50 Right.
00:48:50 --> 00:48:51 You don't
00:48:51 --> 00:48:52 stress
00:48:52 --> 00:48:52 like that.
00:48:53 --> 00:48:56 So typically we just say stick for bare root trees.
00:48:56 --> 00:49:00 This is stick within that season where the tree is dormant
00:49:00 --> 00:49:02 and the ground isn't frozen.
00:49:02 --> 00:49:06 And you're in your, your mild weather, so nice.
00:49:07 --> 00:49:08 it can get down to freezing.
00:49:08 --> 00:49:09 That's not a problem.
00:49:09 --> 00:49:13 But then you don't want it to get super hot and dry and sunny.
00:49:14 --> 00:49:17 Like those are the things that dry out trees much faster.
00:49:17 --> 00:49:20 You can extend your season with potted trees.
00:49:21 --> 00:49:26 The challenge is that those are, they're more expensive, they're harder to ship.
00:49:26 --> 00:49:30 So if you have certain particular things that you want, it's
00:49:30 --> 00:49:32 oftentimes harder to get those.
00:49:33 --> 00:49:36 so typically for our syllable pasture plantings, we're really
00:49:36 --> 00:49:40 just using a combination of bare root trees and live stakes.
00:49:40 --> 00:49:45 And live stakes are dormant of willows or poplars or.
00:49:46 --> 00:49:50 The couple other species where this works, where you can put a stick in the
00:49:50 --> 00:49:51 ground and it'll make its own roots.
00:49:53 --> 00:49:55 I wish every tree did that, but most trees don't.
00:49:55 --> 00:49:58 But there's a couple trees that work well in a Silva Pasture
00:49:58 --> 00:49:59 and it, it does quite nicely.
00:50:00 --> 00:50:05 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Just on that do Bodark or OSCE joins Head
00:50:05 --> 00:50:10 app Hedge Apple, will they do that or are you familiar with them?
00:50:10 --> 00:50:12 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: I don't believe that they will.
00:50:12 --> 00:50:13 I am, I am familiar with them.
00:50:14 --> 00:50:17 think primarily you're gonna be establishing those from seed.
00:50:18 --> 00:50:21 We have a grafted variety that we're just messing around with.
00:50:21 --> 00:50:23 We don't have it for sale yet.
00:50:23 --> 00:50:27 It's called a white shield and that's one that I would be interested
00:50:27 --> 00:50:29 in clonally propagating more.
00:50:29 --> 00:50:34 It's a it's a thornless hedge apple Osage.
00:50:34 --> 00:50:39 And so you kinda get the best of really, really hard rot resistant wood, and
00:50:39 --> 00:50:40 you don't have to deal with the thorns.
00:50:41 --> 00:50:42 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh, yes.
00:50:42 --> 00:50:47 The, for me reason I bring 'em up, I find those trees very fascinating
00:50:47 --> 00:50:52 and I always think I'm gonna try and cut some of the, the younger branches
00:50:52 --> 00:50:55 off because they just shoot up so many and see if they could root.
00:50:55 --> 00:50:57 But I, I just never have yet.
00:50:57 --> 00:50:59 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: mean, try it now is probably
00:50:59 --> 00:51:00 the right time to try it.
00:51:00 --> 00:51:02 But I wouldn't hold my breath on on
00:51:03 --> 00:51:03 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Okay.
00:51:04 --> 00:51:04 Yeah.
00:51:06 --> 00:51:11 With getting your trees into the ground, I know in ity we're moving
00:51:11 --> 00:51:15 away from chemicals, we're moving away from bringing fertilizer in.
00:51:15 --> 00:51:19 Are you doing any chemicals or fertilizers with the trees to
00:51:19 --> 00:51:21 help them establish themselves?
00:51:21 --> 00:51:23 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: We are not, most of our clients are organic.
00:51:24 --> 00:51:28 Whether they are certified organic or they're just using organic practices,
00:51:28 --> 00:51:35 we don't really, other than for, for sites that are not organic, not certified
00:51:36 --> 00:51:38 sometimes we'll use a, a root dip.
00:51:39 --> 00:51:39 Which has a
00:51:40 --> 00:51:40 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh, okay.
00:51:41 --> 00:51:43 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: That it just helps put more moisture right
00:51:43 --> 00:51:47 around the right around the roots for when the tree is first getting established.
00:51:48 --> 00:51:51 Other than that, no, it's very, very simple.
00:51:51 --> 00:51:55 We don't recommend fertilizing trees initially.
00:51:55 --> 00:51:57 Just get, just let 'em get established, make sure that
00:51:57 --> 00:51:58 they have plenty of moisture.
00:51:59 --> 00:52:03 Make sure in the, the wood chips are establishing more of that michal
00:52:04 --> 00:52:07 fungal soil biology right around there.
00:52:07 --> 00:52:09 So that helps the trees establish as well.
00:52:09 --> 00:52:12 So just make sure that the trees are well taken care of that way.
00:52:13 --> 00:52:17 And and don't try to push them with fertilizers right outta the gate.
00:52:19 --> 00:52:20 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh, very good.
00:52:20 --> 00:52:26 The other thing that seems to be, or, or big thing, I blame the trees
00:52:26 --> 00:52:32 I plant in my yard on why they're not su successful, and that is water.
00:52:32 --> 00:52:33 We get dry.
00:52:33 --> 00:52:39 So on these young trees, how much water should they be getting and at what point
00:52:39 --> 00:52:41 do we step in and provide water to 'em?
00:52:42 --> 00:52:43 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: Yeah, I mean, it's gonna depend
00:52:43 --> 00:52:45 so much on species and context.
00:52:45 --> 00:52:46 So
00:52:47 --> 00:52:50 gonna want a whole lot more water than a honey locust or in mesquite.
00:52:51 --> 00:52:54 In our context here in southeastern Pennsylvania, we're,
00:52:54 --> 00:52:58 we're fortunate enough that we don't have a lot of drought.
00:52:58 --> 00:53:01 I say that even though we've had drought the last couple years during
00:53:01 --> 00:53:05 kind of critical times during the spring and during the summer and,
00:53:05 --> 00:53:09 and the fall, we've had some really long stretches for us of drought.
00:53:10 --> 00:53:14 Typically we do not, we don't water, we don't set up irrigation.
00:53:14 --> 00:53:17 Most farms around here are not really set up for irrigation,
00:53:17 --> 00:53:19 especially grazing operations.
00:53:19 --> 00:53:20 So we don't.
00:53:21 --> 00:53:21 Irrigate.
00:53:22 --> 00:53:28 Occasionally we will supplemental, do some supplemental watering a tank on the back
00:53:28 --> 00:53:30 of a side by side or something like that.
00:53:30 --> 00:53:31 It's a lot of work.
00:53:31 --> 00:53:32 It's,
00:53:33 --> 00:53:34 of hassle to do that.
00:53:34 --> 00:53:39 So typically we don't, mulching is your best watering
00:53:39 --> 00:53:40 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: The best way to solve that.
00:53:40 --> 00:53:40 Yeah.
00:53:41 --> 00:53:42 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: that you can do is mulching.
00:53:43 --> 00:53:49 The, the challenge there is if you plant when the ground is dry and it
00:53:49 --> 00:53:54 stays dry, your mulch isn't gonna do anything for you then because there's no
00:53:54 --> 00:53:56 moisture for it to conserve in the soil.
00:53:56 --> 00:54:03 So that's, I think, the main context where I would, would water those trees
00:54:03 --> 00:54:07 after I plant them and then mulch it really good so that you can conserve
00:54:07 --> 00:54:09 that moisture as much as possible.
00:54:09 --> 00:54:11 And then do a rain dance.
00:54:12 --> 00:54:12 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh, yes.
00:54:12 --> 00:54:18 Now one thing I know going to Tulsa, we, we crossed the Vergus River and
00:54:18 --> 00:54:22 there's lots of pecan trees around the Fergus River and when they plan them, or
00:54:22 --> 00:54:24 this one orchard, I see a whole bunch.
00:54:24 --> 00:54:28 They have buckets out there at the base of each tree.
00:54:28 --> 00:54:33 is that for us who experience drought a little bit more?
00:54:33 --> 00:54:37 Is that something we should be looking at, or do you think it's going to be the
00:54:37 --> 00:54:41 mulching and we just monitor that We can get by with just a little supplement?
00:54:41 --> 00:54:43 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: you can probably still get by with just
00:54:43 --> 00:54:45 a little bit of a supplement, but
00:54:46 --> 00:54:50 you can provide the merrier, so if, if it makes economic sense for you
00:54:50 --> 00:54:54 as a, and you have the right setup to do a bucket with a little hole in the
00:54:54 --> 00:54:56 bottom, I think that's a great option.
00:54:57 --> 00:55:00 In our, in our context, we've been able to get by with not a whole lot.
00:55:01 --> 00:55:01 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh, yeah.
00:55:02 --> 00:55:04 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: yours, I would say, you're gonna be drier.
00:55:04 --> 00:55:08 You're gonna on the whole need to provide a little bit more care for those trees,
00:55:08 --> 00:55:11 particularly in the moisture category.
00:55:11 --> 00:55:12 So I'd be.
00:55:13 --> 00:55:19 thoughtful about when I plant what I'm doing to conserve moisture.
00:55:19 --> 00:55:24 So you might want to do gallons of wood chips just as an extra precaution.
00:55:25 --> 00:55:29 And you might say, I'm gonna plant my trees in December.
00:55:29 --> 00:55:33 I'm assuming that you don't really have a whole lot of ground freezing.
00:55:34 --> 00:55:37 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: We, we do not, if it occurs, we're all hibernating.
00:55:38 --> 00:55:40 We usually don't get too much of that.
00:55:40 --> 00:55:42 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: So if you can get trees from a nursery
00:55:42 --> 00:55:47 in December and plant them during the winter time when they have plenty of
00:55:47 --> 00:55:52 time to get themselves settled in, right, nicely they don't need, they don't need
00:55:52 --> 00:55:53 any moisture during the winter, right?
00:55:53 --> 00:55:57 Because they're not, they're not transpiring during the winter.
00:55:57 --> 00:56:00 You've got plenty of time to get your mulch settled in, right?
00:56:00 --> 00:56:03 Capture all of that moisture that's gonna follow, that's gonna fall.
00:56:04 --> 00:56:06 Anything that's gonna fall during the winter you're capturing.
00:56:06 --> 00:56:11 And then it's in a really good space when you're going into the growing season.
00:56:11 --> 00:56:16 Whereas if you were to try, if you're pushing it and you wanted to get things
00:56:16 --> 00:56:21 planted in April and things are already starting to warm up and maybe you have
00:56:21 --> 00:56:25 a dry spell and the soil isn't all that, it doesn't have much moisture in it
00:56:25 --> 00:56:29 and you put your trees in and there's not a lot of moisture in there, you're
00:56:29 --> 00:56:30 just setting yourself up for more work.
00:56:30 --> 00:56:31 You can still
00:56:31 --> 00:56:32 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh yeah.
00:56:32 --> 00:56:34 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: If you provide the water, but
00:56:34 --> 00:56:36 providing water is, is a real chore.
00:56:37 --> 00:56:40 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: So Austin, what I'm hearing is, like I told
00:56:40 --> 00:56:43 you earlier, I think about getting you on the podcast too late.
00:56:43 --> 00:56:47 I should have had you on back November and had this, and then I'd been
00:56:47 --> 00:56:49 gung-ho got some trees in the ground.
00:56:49 --> 00:56:50 Yeah.
00:56:50 --> 00:56:52 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: It is getting pretty late right now for you
00:56:52 --> 00:56:53 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Yes.
00:56:54 --> 00:56:55 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: planting yet this year.
00:56:55 --> 00:56:55 Yep.
00:56:56 --> 00:57:00 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: The, the other thing on that moisture and needs is that
00:57:01 --> 00:57:04 something, if we get into a drought to worry about the first year, is the second
00:57:04 --> 00:57:09 year the tree gonna be okay without us being really concerned about it?
00:57:09 --> 00:57:10 Or do we still need to be pretty concerned?
00:57:11 --> 00:57:12 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: second year the tree is gonna be much
00:57:12 --> 00:57:16 better established especially and in your context where you are drier.
00:57:16 --> 00:57:20 The upside of that is your mulch is probably gonna be, is probably
00:57:20 --> 00:57:22 gonna stay in good condition longer,
00:57:22 --> 00:57:23 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: I Oh yeah.
00:57:23 --> 00:57:25 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: as much moisture to break it down.
00:57:25 --> 00:57:30 So your mulch is probably gonna continue to provide that additional
00:57:30 --> 00:57:33 moisture right around the base of the tree where it needs it the most into
00:57:33 --> 00:57:37 that second year, potentially even into the third year in your context.
00:57:38 --> 00:57:39 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh, okay.
00:57:39 --> 00:57:39 Yeah.
00:57:39 --> 00:57:40 Okay.
00:57:40 --> 00:57:40 Very good.
00:57:41 --> 00:57:43 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: But it really is those first, that first
00:57:43 --> 00:57:45 growing season that's the most critical.
00:57:47 --> 00:57:48 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Yeah, yeah.
00:57:49 --> 00:57:52 Hey, Austin, I'm trying to think as I'm run through planting
00:57:52 --> 00:57:57 trees in my mind, trying to think is there anything I missed?
00:57:57 --> 00:58:02 And I'm sure there is, but in my mind, I'm not thinking of anything right now.
00:58:02 --> 00:58:04 Can you think of something I should have asked that I didn't?
00:58:05 --> 00:58:06 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: I think we definitely hit
00:58:06 --> 00:58:07 the most, the key things.
00:58:07 --> 00:58:12 So the, the protection from livestock, the protection from, from drought and,
00:58:12 --> 00:58:19 and loss of moisture from voles, the timeframe to take the tree shelters off.
00:58:20 --> 00:58:23 And that really is something that we're still, we're still messing around with.
00:58:24 --> 00:58:27 We, we also talked about kind of alternatives where I think
00:58:27 --> 00:58:33 cages would be a solid option if you provide a lot of mulch.
00:58:34 --> 00:58:35 With, with that caveat.
00:58:36 --> 00:58:41 And like a, just a cattle panel and two T posts seems like a good way to go.
00:58:42 --> 00:58:44 It is expensive, like material
00:58:44 --> 00:58:45 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh yeah, it would,
00:58:45 --> 00:58:47 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: probably gonna run you 50 bucks.
00:58:47 --> 00:58:51 Whereas in the tree shelters, even though they might run 10 bucks, they start to
00:58:51 --> 00:58:56 look really really affordable when you start to compare them to cattle panels.
00:58:57 --> 00:59:01 Although the nice thing about cattle panels is you can reuse them indefinitely.
00:59:01 --> 00:59:03 It's a very, very simple thing to do.
00:59:04 --> 00:59:04 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Yeah.
00:59:04 --> 00:59:10 And to be honest, I plan on going out there and identifying a few saplings that
00:59:10 --> 00:59:11 are coming up and doing the cattle panels.
00:59:11 --> 00:59:15 So I'm glad with the, or goat panels with the mulch.
00:59:15 --> 00:59:19 I'll have to add that factor, but it's because I have the panels here.
00:59:19 --> 00:59:19 It's no cost.
00:59:19 --> 00:59:21 It's just labor for me.
00:59:21 --> 00:59:21 Yeah.
00:59:21 --> 00:59:25 But I can fully see if you're going out and buying them, maybe you
00:59:25 --> 00:59:27 should be looking at the tubes.
00:59:27 --> 00:59:29 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: and the, the other thing is that
00:59:29 --> 00:59:32 the tubes work really nicely in a context where you're planting,
00:59:32 --> 00:59:35 maybe it's 20 trees, 40 trees per
00:59:35 --> 00:59:35 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh yeah.
00:59:36 --> 00:59:37 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: If you're only gonna do a couple
00:59:37 --> 00:59:41 trees per acre, you, it's hard to span that, that long of a distance
00:59:41 --> 00:59:43 with your electric fencing, right?
00:59:43 --> 00:59:43 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh yeah.
00:59:43 --> 00:59:47 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: that's where cattle panels make more sense, maybe
00:59:47 --> 00:59:53 some way of protecting trees individually so that you can, and if you're only
00:59:53 --> 00:59:56 doing a couple trees per acre, the cost doesn't add up near as quickly either.
00:59:57 --> 00:59:57 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: True.
00:59:57 --> 00:59:58 Yep.
00:59:58 --> 01:00:00 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: And that's a great way to start for folks.
01:00:00 --> 01:00:03 It's a very simple yeah, very simple.
01:00:03 --> 01:00:06 Low risk means of starting with planting trees in your pasture
01:00:07 --> 01:00:10 with that, with material that a lot of farmers have on hand already.
01:00:12 --> 01:00:13 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Yeah.
01:00:13 --> 01:00:16 And we like to reuse the stuff out of our junk pile.
01:00:17 --> 01:00:17 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: There we go.
01:00:18 --> 01:00:20 It justifies having a junk pile, right?
01:00:21 --> 01:00:21 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Right?
01:00:21 --> 01:00:21 Right.
01:00:22 --> 01:00:25 Are you a truly a farmer if you don't have a junk pile?
01:00:25 --> 01:00:27 That's, that's maybe the discussion.
01:00:28 --> 01:00:31 Austin, it's time that we move on to our famous four questions.
01:00:31 --> 01:00:34 Same four questions we ask of all of our guests.
01:00:34 --> 01:00:39 Our first question, what is your favorite grazing grass related book or resource?
01:00:39 --> 01:00:43 And I know we're looking at this through the context of Sywell Pastor, and
01:00:43 --> 01:00:47 I'm guessing it has not changed from four years ago, but we'll find out.
01:00:47 --> 01:00:49 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: has not, is still tree crops.
01:00:49 --> 01:00:49 So tree
01:00:50 --> 01:00:50 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: It has not.
01:00:51 --> 01:00:52 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: Yep, yep.
01:00:52 --> 01:00:54 The book written back in the 1920s.
01:00:54 --> 01:01:00 It is still my favorite go-to book in order to see how tree crops
01:01:00 --> 01:01:06 were used, across the country and across the world back in the, the
01:01:06 --> 01:01:08 early part of the 19 hundreds.
01:01:08 --> 01:01:10 It's still an inspirational book for me.
01:01:12 --> 01:01:12 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Very good.
01:01:12 --> 01:01:16 And you know, after we, we recorded the episode four years ago, I
01:01:16 --> 01:01:17 went out and bought that book.
01:01:17 --> 01:01:21 So I believe it's should be on my, my shelf.
01:01:21 --> 01:01:22 It may be on a different shelf.
01:01:23 --> 01:01:24 I did go through and read it.
01:01:24 --> 01:01:25 It's very interesting
01:01:25 --> 01:01:29 and I really got gung ho for a while, but I didn't get anything done.
01:01:29 --> 01:01:29 So,
01:01:30 --> 01:01:32 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: Maybe time it'll be,
01:01:32 --> 01:01:33 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: maybe the second time will help.
01:01:33 --> 01:01:34 I,
01:01:34 --> 01:01:35 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: should reschedule another
01:01:35 --> 01:01:37 episode to go out in November.
01:01:38 --> 01:01:39 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: we should
01:01:39 --> 01:01:42 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: one in November so that you get all, all excited
01:01:42 --> 01:01:45 to do your tree planting then, rather than right now, when we're going into summer.
01:01:46 --> 01:01:47 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Exactly, exactly.
01:01:49 --> 01:01:50 Our second question.
01:01:50 --> 01:01:52 What's your favorite tool for the farm?
01:01:53 --> 01:01:55 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: I think four years ago I probably
01:01:55 --> 01:01:56 said it plant a tree shelter.
01:01:56 --> 01:02:01 And that's still probably the, the best tool that I have.
01:02:03 --> 01:02:06 other than talking about trees themselves.
01:02:06 --> 01:02:09 And we didn't talk at all about trees or genetics or anything like that.
01:02:09 --> 01:02:10 There's a lot of
01:02:10 --> 01:02:11 there.
01:02:11 --> 01:02:14 That would be its whole own podcast series.
01:02:14 --> 01:02:20 But as far as a, a tool yeah, that six foot tall planter tree shelter with a
01:02:20 --> 01:02:22 plastic tube and the fiberglass steak.
01:02:22 --> 01:02:26 Very, very useful for getting trees established in the pasture.
01:02:27 --> 01:02:27 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Yeah.
01:02:28 --> 01:02:28 Very good.
01:02:29 --> 01:02:30 And what would you tell someone?
01:02:30 --> 01:02:31 Just getting started?
01:02:32 --> 01:02:35 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: Start small and start now.
01:02:36 --> 01:02:36 So.
01:02:37 --> 01:02:42 Make your mistakes on a small scale and you, you will make mistakes
01:02:43 --> 01:02:45 out what works on your farm.
01:02:45 --> 01:02:51 It's often easier to go out and do that with 10 trees and see what works, see what
01:02:51 --> 01:02:57 doesn't work, make your mistakes in a, in an inexpensive way, rather than going out
01:02:57 --> 01:03:01 and planting or a thousand trees at once.
01:03:01 --> 01:03:02 Right.
01:03:02 --> 01:03:06 the costs tend to add up with every zero that you put in at the end of that.
01:03:07 --> 01:03:08 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Yes.
01:03:08 --> 01:03:09 Excellent advice.
01:03:09 --> 01:03:10 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: go from there.
01:03:10 --> 01:03:13 And, and the sooner that you can get started, the sooner that you're
01:03:13 --> 01:03:17 gonna start to get some feedback on what works and what doesn't.
01:03:17 --> 01:03:19 And then you can you can use that and integrate that
01:03:19 --> 01:03:21 feedback into the next rounds.
01:03:23 --> 01:03:24 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Yeah, very good.
01:03:24 --> 01:03:25 Excellent advice there.
01:03:25 --> 01:03:28 I, I love that simplicity of start small.
01:03:28 --> 01:03:29 Start now.
01:03:30 --> 01:03:30 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: Mm-hmm.
01:03:31 --> 01:03:31 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Need a shirt?
01:03:31 --> 01:03:32 Says start small.
01:03:32 --> 01:03:33 Start now.
01:03:33 --> 01:03:33 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: Actually.
01:03:33 --> 01:03:36 We start, we should start selling that in our merch shop that we don't have yet
01:03:37 --> 01:03:38 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Yes.
01:03:38 --> 01:03:38 Yeah.
01:03:38 --> 01:03:39 There you go.
01:03:40 --> 01:03:40 Our.
01:03:41 --> 01:03:43 Fourth question, where can others find out more about you?
01:03:44 --> 01:03:48 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: at our website, which is trees for graziers.com.
01:03:49 --> 01:03:54 We have articles, we have tree shelters, we have trees when those
01:03:54 --> 01:03:57 are in season, all kinds of resources of available on our website.
01:03:57 --> 01:04:02 We, we really lean hard into the education side of syllable pasture because there's
01:04:02 --> 01:04:05 just so much to be learned about it.
01:04:05 --> 01:04:08 And so little information available out there.
01:04:08 --> 01:04:10 So there's just a ton of resources.
01:04:11 --> 01:04:12 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Very good.
01:04:12 --> 01:04:15 And we have one final question that I didn't warn you about.
01:04:16 --> 01:04:18 Do you have a question for me?
01:04:19 --> 01:04:21 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: Do I have a question for you?
01:04:21 --> 01:04:22 Let's see here.
01:04:23 --> 01:04:23 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: I.
01:04:23 --> 01:04:24 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: Huh?
01:04:25 --> 01:04:32 I'm quite, I'm curious, do you, do you see honey locusts in your area of Oklahoma?
01:04:33 --> 01:04:34 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Yes.
01:04:34 --> 01:04:35 And everyone hates 'em.
01:04:35 --> 01:04:35 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: Mm-hmm.
01:04:36 --> 01:04:36 I mean,
01:04:37 --> 01:04:37 is valid.
01:04:37 --> 01:04:38 I understand why.
01:04:39 --> 01:04:42 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: I, I know from our last, our first episode, we,
01:04:43 --> 01:04:48 we recorded you were talking about the, the nutritional qualities of
01:04:48 --> 01:04:51 honey locust pods and tree crops.
01:04:51 --> 01:04:53 Talk about that as well.
01:04:53 --> 01:04:59 So I got some land lease that's just a, well, it actually connects to that and
01:04:59 --> 01:05:03 the co company had reclaimed this land and put in a whole bunch of honey locusts.
01:05:03 --> 01:05:05 And I was excited for that.
01:05:05 --> 01:05:09 But when I gained access to the land, someone had sprayed them all.
01:05:09 --> 01:05:10 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: Oh, really?
01:05:10 --> 01:05:13 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Now, now they only sprayed the ones that got put in.
01:05:13 --> 01:05:16 There's a whole bunch that's grown volunteering the.
01:05:17 --> 01:05:19 that they didn't dig or reclaim.
01:05:19 --> 01:05:24 And actually those need thin some, so, but I do have honey locusts
01:05:24 --> 01:05:25 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: Okay.
01:05:26 --> 01:05:26 better or worse.
01:05:26 --> 01:05:27 Right.
01:05:27 --> 01:05:28 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: for better or worse.
01:05:28 --> 01:05:28 Yeah.
01:05:28 --> 01:05:30 There's, there's negatives and positives there.
01:05:30 --> 01:05:33 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: that's where the genetics are so important
01:05:33 --> 01:05:36 for a honey locust, and we've, that's the whole other conversation that we
01:05:36 --> 01:05:40 could get into about the work that we're doing on, on that side of things.
01:05:42 --> 01:05:47 but I'm, I'm, I'm curious how far one can push the boundaries
01:05:47 --> 01:05:48 of honey locusts because,
01:05:49 --> 01:05:49 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh yes.
01:05:49 --> 01:05:52 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: I know of a cultivar that was discovered
01:05:52 --> 01:05:54 way up north in New York state.
01:05:54 --> 01:06:00 I know I've been sent trees or I've sent, been sent pods from up Minnesota,
01:06:01 --> 01:06:05 and in the book Tree Crops, or No, out, it was in another resource,
01:06:05 --> 01:06:09 another old resource that I read where they were seeing honey locust trees.
01:06:09 --> 01:06:12 Out, in, out in Colorado actually by the Garden of the
01:06:12 --> 01:06:13 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh yeah.
01:06:13 --> 01:06:16 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: So very, very dry, very arid areas.
01:06:17 --> 01:06:21 So amazing area that they can cover.
01:06:22 --> 01:06:26 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: I pulled up from USDA Forest Service.
01:06:26 --> 01:06:31 They show honey, honey locusts being fully within the eastern half
01:06:31 --> 01:06:34 of Oklahoma and Texas and Kansas.
01:06:34 --> 01:06:36 But Colorado is west there.
01:06:36 --> 01:06:40 And of course, you know, as we introduce things, the range grows and I'm not
01:06:40 --> 01:06:42 sure how often these maps are updated.
01:06:43 --> 01:06:46 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: I know of, of, trees.
01:06:46 --> 01:06:49 Well, outside of the boundaries of maps that I've seen.
01:06:49 --> 01:06:51 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Oh yeah, I imagine so.
01:06:51 --> 01:06:54 Because they're very easy to grow here.
01:06:55 --> 01:06:55 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: Yep.
01:06:55 --> 01:06:55 Yep.
01:06:55 --> 01:06:56 They grow.
01:06:56 --> 01:06:59 Well, they're, they are definitely an early succession
01:06:59 --> 01:07:01 species, a pioneering species.
01:07:01 --> 01:07:02 They can take a lot of drought.
01:07:02 --> 01:07:07 I've seen, I've seen a honey locust in very, very droughty dry areas, but
01:07:07 --> 01:07:12 then also seen them growing out of, growing out of a lake, like completely
01:07:12 --> 01:07:12 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: yes.
01:07:13 --> 01:07:16 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: And it was growing out of a a, of a lake.
01:07:17 --> 01:07:20 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: I don't think I've, I haven't seen any
01:07:20 --> 01:07:22 growing with really wet feet.
01:07:23 --> 01:07:24 Most of it's Dr.
01:07:25 --> 01:07:29 Drier area, but I mean, that doesn't mean they don't, I just haven't
01:07:29 --> 01:07:33 seen it in in those spots that I have a little bit of water standing.
01:07:33 --> 01:07:34 Typically.
01:07:34 --> 01:07:36 I have willows that take over there.
01:07:36 --> 01:07:37 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: Yep.
01:07:37 --> 01:07:37 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Yeah.
01:07:38 --> 01:07:38 Yeah.
01:07:38 --> 01:07:41 Well, Austin, really appreciate you coming back on the podcast.
01:07:42 --> 01:07:46 been too long since you were on here, so let's not go so long next time.
01:07:46 --> 01:07:46 austin-unruh_1_03-28-2025_130826: Okay.
01:07:46 --> 01:07:48 Well, I look forward to our next conversation.
01:07:48 --> 01:07:48 Thank
01:07:49 --> 01:07:49 me again.
01:07:49 --> 01:07:49 Cal.
01:07:50 --> 01:07:51 cal_2_03-28-2025_120826: Thank you, Austin.
01:07:52 --> 01:07:55 Cal: Thank you for listening to this episode of the grazing grass podcast,
01:07:56 --> 01:08:00 where we bring you stories and insights into grass-based livestock production.
01:08:00 --> 01:08:03 If you're new here, we've got something just for you.
01:08:03 --> 01:08:05 Our new listener resource guide.
01:08:06 --> 01:08:09 Is packed with everything you need to get started on your listening
01:08:09 --> 01:08:12 journey with a grazing grass podcast.
01:08:12 --> 01:08:16 It gives you more information about the podcast about myself.
01:08:16 --> 01:08:17 And next steps.
01:08:18 --> 01:08:21 You can grab your free copy at grazinggrass.com
01:08:21 --> 01:08:22 slash guide.
01:08:23 --> 01:08:24 Don't miss out.
01:08:25 --> 01:08:27 And Hey, do you have a grazing story to share?
01:08:28 --> 01:08:32 We're always looking for passionate producers to feature on the show,
01:08:32 --> 01:08:37 whether you're just starting out or have years of experience your story matters.
01:08:38 --> 01:08:39 Head over to grazing grass.
01:08:40 --> 01:08:41 Dot com slash guest.
01:08:41 --> 01:08:44 To learn more and apply to be a guest.
01:08:44 --> 01:08:48 We'd love to share your journey with our growing community of grazers.
01:08:49 --> 01:08:50 Until next time.
01:08:51 --> 01:08:52 Keep on grazing grass.
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